To count or not to count?

Greetings from the Uk! Im learning to count cards at the mo as its clearly the only way to profit from blackjack long term. After many hours of practice i can now count a deck down in approx 24 seconds, bit slow i know! But im sure i will improve with more practice. Is it worth it though? I live in the Uk and all the local casinos i have visited use shuffling machines. I am coming to vegas soon but will have just 30-40 hours playing time and a $1500 bankroll. So is it worth me sitting there with a pickled head struggling to look normal? Or should i just enjoy a few beers and some banter with the crazy people that congregate at the tables? Im looking for something in between. Perhaps a more simpler count than the high/low. Is there a counting system that just involves aces or 5s &6s? After reading this back i just sound lazy but after all im going to be on my hols and want to enjoy the game. Any ideas?

Perhaps a more simpler count than the high/low. Is there a counting system that just involves aces or 5s &6s? After reading this back i just sound lazy but after all im going to be on my hols and want to enjoy the game. Any ideas?

If by "enjoy the game" you mean you're willing to play a losing game, then perhaps being a basic strategy player is enough for you. With a $1500 budget, you won't get many comps and you will stand a very good chance of losing the whole thing in 30 to 40 hours of play. If you confine yourself to the big Strip casinos, you will have a very difficult time finding a decent game to play at low limits.

If you choose to count, at least you may be able to play a positive game, but once again, with a $1500 budget, you will stand a good chance of losing it all.

Regardless of the choice you make, I hope you refuse to play the ridiculous 6:5 single deck games now being offered all over Las Vegas.

You may want to look into an unbalanced count, such as KO or Red Seven. KO is described in the book, Knock-Out Blackjack, while Red Seven is covered in Snyder's Blackbelt in Blackjack tome. They are both easier to use than Hi-Lo and for all practical purposes, just as effective.

By the way, what does "on my hols" mean. This hapless American isn't familiar with the term.

"By the way, what does "on my hols" mean."

Short for "on holiday" = "on vacation."

Don

I should have figured that one out on my own. Duh! :-)

Don made some good suggestions.

Some other options; Either Carlson or Revere have an Ace/Five count that you could use in Blackjack for Blood or Playing BJ as Business. I've never used it but its available. The ace is the best card for the player whereas the five is the worst card so the ratio of the two gives you a very crude way to get an edge on the games with minimal house edge.

On your BR you might want to play the only decent SD games in Vegas downtown. They have a house edge of only 0.18. and $5 limits! You'll get no heat betting nickles.

Or you could flat bet the $25 min DD S17 games on the strip which have an edge of only 0.19.

Finally you could play the $10-25 min shoes 6D DS RSA LS at a house edge of 0.26.

With a limited stake you will not want to bet more than the $25min if you hope to make your money last for your entire trip.

You will be ground down eventually w/o counting although you may have enough to last your entire trip if you play the best rules at low stakes and don't have really bad luck.

Playing BS at the best strip shoe games for a flat $25 bet should only cost you $6.25/hr but a large negative fluctuation could hit you hard. Still losing 60 flat bets playing BS should be very, very unlikley!

Good luck

There's a book called "Blackjack Bluebook" by Fred Renzy. It discusses various counting systems from balanced to unbalanced but it also includes a count called "The Ace/10 Front Count", where you'd only count aces and tens. It's geared more towards the 6 deck game and only provides a very tiny and I repeat tiny edge. Your chances of being wiped out are good.

For historical purposes, let me state that Ken Uston in his book "Million Dollar Blackjack" has a count called "The Ace-Five Count" where all you'd count are aces and fives. This count is geared more towards the single deck game, your edge is tiny and I don't think it's for the single deck game offered today as it was written back in the 1980's.

Since you also asked for a count easier than Hi-Lo, Bootlegger is right, the Knock-out count and Red Seven are both easier, but there's something else that's even simpler but it's not really counting. There's a book called "Golden Touch Blackjack Revolution" by Frank Scoblete. It presents a system called "Speed Count" where all you have to do is add up all the small cards and them subtract the total from the number of hands being played. The number you arrive at tells you whether or not to increase your bet. The book comes with a CD that you can practice with. This is not traditional card counting but it's easy to learn.

If you're interested in Speed Count but don't want to buy the book, Arnold Snyder's blackjack website, www.blackjackforumonline.com teaches a count called "OPPC". It's similar to Speed Count and they teach it for free on the website. On the home page you can click on it to start learning. OPPC is not card counting. Like I said, it's similar to Scoblete's Speed Count.

If all you wan't to do is count aces and another card I'd suggest you go with Fred Renzy's Ace-10 front count in the book "Blackjack Bluebook 2". Remember your edge is tiny, you'll more than likely be wiped out, but hey, it's better than nothing. Even if you decide not to learn the ace-ten frontcount Blackjack Bluebook 2 is still a good book to get because it exposes all of the myths that regular players at the tables beleive in, it has a section on camoflauge and how you should act at the tables that really is excellent compared to other books that have sections on camo, and it teaches simple unbalanced counts like Kiss 1, Kiss 2, and Kiss 3 to a balanced level 2 count called "Mentor".

Hope this helps. Tell the Queen I said Hi, and tell Fergie we don't care about her weight issues.

do you like to play mindless games or games where you actually participate and influence the outcome? mindless games include things like flipping a coin, betting at a roulette wheel, etc. If you like those, then counting might be a chore.

But if you like to actually participate mentally in a game, then counting is probably for you. Now you have something to do, and the better you "do" it the better your winning probability becomes. And if you can do "it" well enough, you can actually walk away a winner, if you can withstand the variance that comes with counting and ramping up your bet at times.

I actually enjoy playing and counting, as now I am actually doing something to help my play, and reduce the boredom at the same time.

Depends on your mental state and energy. But what's not to like about playing a game where you are actually a small favorite to walk away with their money, at a cost of a little mental exercise that is good for you, and enjoyable for many....

And I was thinking is was UKese for "hooker".

:)

If you can count Hi-Low consistently without mistakes in less than 30 seconds, go with it. It is very powerful. Why introduce to your mind an inferior count that has to be learned?

We need to know if you mean continuous shuffle machines (CSM's) or automatic shuffle machines (ASM's). We need to know if there is a begining and end to each pack of cards or if they are continuously feed back into the mix of a continuous shuffle process.

Don made some good suggestions.

I like Don, but don't give him credit for my work! :-)

You're coming to vacation and party so do just that and enjoy. When you're sober, stick with your hi -low with the primary plays from Illustrious 18. While you're playing 3:2 single deck downtown, even if you flirt while ordering another one, and miss a few cards, no biggee. There will be another shuffle in a hand or two. And as the "gambler" that you are, who cares if you spread more than 1 to 4? You're a guy on holiday yakking it up with everybody. And they're actually happy for you cuz you might even be winning some, heh? If you get to where you don't feel like paying attention but still want to gamble, make sure you do it at $5 or max $10 and enjoy the camaraderie.

Its interesting that no one said drink beers and relax! I think the best thing for me would be to take a look at the various systems suggested and see if any seem easier to handle than the high/low. My reservations about advantage play are probably more to do with risk of detection than anything else. I have no real experience so am unsure how well i would handle the pressure of counting with lots of distractions. One thing for sure is that i wont be playing any 6:5 or other games with poor odds. Blackjack, poker & craps are the only games i intend to play.

I will be spending a few days downtown and then a few days on the strip. I didnt realize they still offer a decent single deck game at .18 house edge! Where could i find that? (hockeydad). Would i be right in thinking a single deck game is more likely to attract heat than a 6 deck game?

In order to "enjoy the game" i need to be able to interact with the dealer & other people at the table and not feel paranoid about my moves. But you are right (Bootlegger), Who enjoys a losing game? But i struggle to speak on the phone and answer a question from another person at the same time so what chance have i got! Practice makes perfect i suppose.

The shuffling machines are CSMs i think. The dealer feeds the cards back in every 1-2 hands. I know nothing about these things, but what better way to avoid heat if they are beatable! I would love to know. Anyway thank you all for your help.

Nat the queen says hello! and tell Britney To get her act together!

Hang on! I was just about to post this then found a reply from shyboy. Well said chief! Not the most profitable tactic but certainly the most fun! I like it.

If you're a good poker player and don't intend to play a lot of blackjack in the coming years, why not stick to poker?

Also, others on this site would know better then I about comps, but would a $1,500 br, playing perfect basic strategy level betting green get him any comps? (Based on the chat last not, it sounds like it wouldn't). But if so, check out Max Rubin's book, comp city. Then you could play a slightly losing game and hustle comps. That could be more enjoyable than learning to be proficient at bet ramp based on the count just for one trip. ??

Your speed is fine for hi low....if you know basic stratgy perfectly. Focus on BS and less on counting, then add the two together. There are some good free practice sights for blackjack. Others may have the links.

....try a bit of counting, but there are so many interesting things to see here that it would be a shame to fly accross "the pond" just to sit at a blackjack table all your waking hours. Use your time wisely and buy some m & m's and a lap dance or two. Have a nice trip to the valley and good luck.

Cobbson

Counting is not the only way to gain an edge at blackjack.

Have fun with everything else in this world but money. I don't encourage anyone who enjoys drinking to drink. I don't encourage you to gamble with your money. If you win without applying proper technique and strategy to any casino game, you are most likely to be destined for what I call a false sense of security. There is no short cut to being a true winner. Go to Vegas and enjoy the girls, food, shows, events and sights.

There are ways to beat casinos consistently out of their $. This site is a great place to begin to learn. You have started down the right path. First you need desire and discipline. When you feel you have it, you are ready to apply techniques to extract $ from casinos. When you can do that, it is very gratifying and ultimately that results in fun and enjoyment.

Also, don't worry so much about getting barred from play. They won't kill you. It is not the end of the world. If you get zapped, just make the necessary changes and head to the next casino. You should know that I now play again in all the same casinos that barred me in my past except one.

I don't suppose I told you what you wanted to hear. I also don't allow my child to play out in our busy street. Tough love my friend. I'm sorry. When you are ready to get serious, we are here. :-)

They are all in DT LV. At the 4 Queens, El Cortex, and Western. The house edge is a miniscule 0.18% and they are $5 minimums. They are probably the best bet for any non counter on a limited BR.

Now for the downside; the 4 Queens is pretty nice but the Western is a dump. The El Cortez is nothing special but they do offer excellent BJ and they aren't going to hassle you.

I have visited vegas once before and took in all the sites (i concur the canyon is indeed grand!) and enjoyed my first ever trip to a casino. I read a book on the plane on the way there that tought me basic strategy and i stuck to it no matter how many people complained when my actions affected them. I still lost of course but i was learning. I now go once a month in the Uk but it really doesnt compare to vegas. I have yet to see anyone else playing basic strategy in my local casino and most folk look at you like your crazy when you hit 16! it baffles me.

I realise OPP is not the most powerful system but for ease of use as a begginner it would seem a good choice. It would allow me more time to practice my cover and i do like the fact that im not required to count the cards as they are dealt. I would love to possess the skills to profit from blackjack that you AP's have but for this trip i will be happy to gain even the slightest edge over the casino. Its better to be the worst AP than the best BS player!

I would be interested to hear your opinions on the OPP system?

I appreciate all of your advice and your tough love (stealth bomber). You are quite right.