I cut and pasted the subject line from the first page you see when you come to this site. Below, Mr. Schlesinger has offered a $100,000 challenge. Will Don's post be busted? Clearly it violates the policy of this board. It's also illegal.
You also see ads for online casinos. You can't place any wagers here.
Don wrote:
I'll meet you anywhere in the continental United States. We'll play 1,000 hands of blackjack (you'll probably double about 100 times). You must play perfect basic strategy. Win only 20% of your doubles, and the $100,000 is yours. Win more, and well, you'll have lost 100 grand,
but I'll have cured your horrible losing streak! :-)
I won't hold my breath waiting for your answer.
Don
Sure, the money doesn't change hands here.
But the BJ21.com operating policies state:
The operating policies of BJ21 set forth the rules that govern your activity on BJ21. While using BJ21, you
may not post or transmit any unlawful, threatening, abusive, libelous, defamatory, obscene, pornographic,
profane, or otherwise objectionable information of any kind; including without limitation any transmissions
constituting or encouraging conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability, or
otherwise violate any local, state, national or international laws.
Pi Yee Press reserves the right to refuse to post or to remove any information or materials, in whole or in
part, that, in its sole discretion, are unacceptable, undesirable, or in violation of this Agreement.
Admittedly, I'm not a lawyer. But I know private poker games sometimes get busted up. How is this different?
"It's also illegal."
What law would that be breaking? Two people making a private bet? Please tell me what law that would be violating. Not that it's ever going to happen, anyway.
Don
Tell me how this is different than betting with a bookie. Isn't that a private bet betwen two individuals? Isn't that illegal? What about taxes? Let's say Mr. Stanton does take you up on this. You most likely win. Do you tell the IRS you won a private bet for $100,000?
Also, do you ever make public bets of an amount that the person you are betting is likely to have? Of course he isn't going to take you up on $100,000. If you bet $1000 he might take you up on it.
"Tell me how this is different than betting with a bookie. Isn't that a private bet betwen two individuals? Isn't that illegal?"
No, it's not. Placing the bet is not illegal. When bookies get busted it is always for: promotion of gambling and illegal possession of gaming equipment and paraphernalia. The people placing the bets are never arrested, because what they are doing is not illegal.
Likewise, holding a Friday night poker game, at a friend's house, even if you play for real money, is NOT illegal. RENTING out your house so that others can play, and charging them a fee for using the premises, IS illegal. See the difference?
"Also, do you ever make public bets of an amount that the person you are betting is likely to have? Of course he isn't going to take you up on $100,000. If you bet $1000 he might take you up on it."
I offer public bets (never seem to get taken up on them) for an amount that would make the time and effort on my part, to collect the bet, worth my while. I would not make a public bet for $1,000, because I don't care enough about $1,000 to meet Mr. Stanton "anywhere in the continental United States. In fact, if the bet were held in my living roon, I still wouldn't do it for $1,000, because to deal 1,000 hands might take ten hours or so, and the time still wouldn't be worth my while.
Tell you what: I'll do it for $10,000 if Frank comes to my living room! And, I'll raise the 20% to 40%.
Don
Bookies are breaking the law because they charge a vig for the priviledge of making the wager. @ friends making a bet is not illegal since no vig is charged.
What you write is logical and reasonable. Perhaps I was confused regarding the law and how it is applied to private wagers. But your response also brings more questions to mind.
You wrote: When bookies get busted it is always for: promotion of gambling and illegal possession of gaming equipment and paraphernalia.
1) Isn't offering a $100,000 wager in a public place promoting gambling?
2) Wouldn't the cards and the pages of records that would be necessary to record 1000 hands of blackjack constitute gaming equipment and paraphenalia? (this is assuming you were caught in the act. I realize that cards are not necessarily gaming equipment).
Finally, how does the IRS view this? I admit what you say sound slogical and reasonable, but I just can't help but think the IRS wouldn't find it too cool if you sent in a return with $100,000 listed as "won bet from Frank Stanton".
are not unlawful. They are just not legally enforceable contracts.
You could report "got $100,000 from big dope deal" on your tax return. As long as you declare your income and pay your taxes on it, the IRS doesn't care where or how you got it.
Now you have learned another thing today.
There is absolutely nothing illegal about 5 guys getting together in one guys' house and playing some poker. Furthermore, guys can agree to contribute a buck out of every pot to cover expenses. It's when the house's owner starts to charge a 5% rake from every pot; that's when the illegality sets in.
M.
Each state has its own laws concerning gambling. In some states, it is not illegal to place a private bet, but it is illegal to be an operator.
I believe that in my own state what you did would be illeagal. If you posted from a computer here, you would be breaking our laws.
It is illegal for Michgian residents to engage in Internet gambling. The MGB actually makes a point of it on their Website.
I saw a TV news clip on gambling during a recent March Madness. They pointed out that in California (where this was shot) it is illegal to participate in an office betting pool.
There may also be Federal laws involved if you are using the internet and/or crossing state lines.
Here are the statues of my state which criminalize any wagering. (There is a separate act authorizing casino licenses, which exempts licensees from these laws. ) Note that there is a law against winning at gambling, and one against losing. There is no law against pushes. Nor is there any law against loosing,so maybe I'm safe.
I will post the link in case you want to read it for yourselves.
Sec. 314. Winning at gambling -Any person who by playing at cards, dice, or any other game, or by betting or putting up money on cards, or by any other means or device in the nature of betting on cards, or betting of any kind, shall win or obtain any sum of money or any goods, or any article of value whatever shall, if the money, goods, or articles so won or obtained be of the value of 50 dollars or less, be guilty of a misdemeanor. If the money, goods, or articles so won or obtained be of the value of more than 50 dollars such person shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 1 year, or by a fine of not more than 500 dollars.750.315 Losing at gambling. [M.S.A. 28.547 ]
Sec. 315. Losing at gambling-Any person who shall lose any sum of money, or any goods, article or thing of value, by playing or betting on cards, dice or by any other device in the nature of such playing or betting, and shall pay or deliver the same or any part thereof to the winner, and shall not, within 3 months after such loss, without covin or collusion, prosecute with effect for such money or goods, the winner to whom such money or goods shall have been so paid or delivered, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine not exceeding 3 times the value of such money or goods. Such loser may sue for and recover such money in an action for money had and received to the use of the plaintiff; and such goods, article or valuable thing in an action of replevin, or the value thereof in an action on the case.
Of course, everybody does it. I've played gin rummy for years with the police chief in my town. (He's not too good.)
a seat charge for holding the game at his residence(like renting the room and providing the service of being a waiter along with supplying food and beverages.) There of course would be no rake.
as long as all money is returned to the winning participants
I didn't know where to begin researching this, so I decided to write I. Nelson Rose. I asked if it is illegal for two individuals to make a
private wager of $100,000. I also asked if I could use his response here. He responded:
You can use my response, but it is probably not going to be of much help, because the answer is "It depends."
The control of gambling is left up to the states. The U.S. gov't. is primarily interested in organized crime, so federal laws are limited almost always to individuals involved in the business of gambling. There are no federal laws which would apply to a bet between two people, unless one of them is a bookie. State laws are another matter. Half the states have prohibitions on making a bet, with obvious and not-so-obvious exceptions.
For example, Calif. Penal Code sec. 337a makes it a crime to accept, record or make a bet on "a contest of skill, speed or power of endurance of man or beast, or between men, beasts, or mechanical apparatus." This law is virtually never used against bettors, only bookies. Still, if the $100,000 bet is on a contest like this, it would be technically illegal.
