The rationales of Pro BJ card counter

You seem to be searching for a shortcut like most of us. Thanks very much for taking the time to let us in on your approach.

It is good to know there is only one Viktor Nacht, but maybe it is no longer necessary to lead with this rebuttal.

You are welcome to write me if you like, but I think it was valuable to us all for you to take such lengths(!) in answering some of my questions. No need to apologize for shooting from the hip because we specialize in it around here. Otherwise it just takes too damn long to catch up. I have never found that BJ21 enforced any kind of table max on words, so just keep typing until you are finished. If there were a limit, Clark Cant established it many months ago, so you will never be in jeopardy of exceeding his world record for words expended. There are still scorch marks at the Pi-Yee offices from his verbiage.

The considerations of boredom and drudgery are not just for the high level player. We all share the same smoky environment no matter how little we bet. Coal miners at least have union work rules that enforce an occasional break. But they have no windows in their workplace either. When you get to a point where you put in a forty hour week at the tables you will begin to understand why Kevin Blackwood probably prefers to think of himself as a writer.

It helps to have a mission. Greed is good, but it will only give you insight into the casino mentality. It will not sustain you through the years... if that is what you want.

As to our office politics, you seem to place a lot of stock in what has happened in public the past couple of months. People get irritated sometimes and eventually things blow over after mistakes have been made, corrected, and wounds heal. Apologies usually occur in private. At least I certainly hope so. To get to the long run on the internet, it is probably better to stand back from battles that do not directly concern you. It is easy to have one's opinion be misinformed because there is a lot of 'secret stuff' that never makes it to the airwaves. You would never think that just one year ago the entire free forum at BJ21 had to be shut down and reconfigured. Now it is more vital and relevant than it has ever been. There are as many fluctuations in the blackjack internet society as there are in the game that brings us all together. Some people have a bad day that stretches out for months. The variance is high. As I mentioned to someone at RGE just yesterday, human behavior is unpredictable with surprising regularity.

There is a lot to learn on forums like this, but I have to admit your prognosis is not favorable if you can't get through books like Blackjack Attack and Blackbelt in Blackjack. If you really want to supercharge your curriculum, since you don't often play, you should join Green Chip. This is where the in-depth discussions occur, and you can badger everyone there til your heart's content. You might discover that there are some good games nearer to you than you think. But blackjack is not like any other activity... it has juice. My other profession has glamour, but it is nothing like hitting the casino with an edge.

So you see, I love the game with all its flaws. And the people here are fascinating and erudite. Occasionally you will find someone with a sense of humor..... {:-)

But as to your offer, no I would not like to change jobs with you. I have no talent for selling shower curtain rings door to door. You can keep your 60 hour weeks. I have enough of them in my business as it is. They make me delusional.

Regards,
scobee

.. I enjoyed the chat.

"You seem to be searching for a shortcut like most of us."

Again, you are very perseptive. I've taken a flyer or two in my life. I enjoy a good calculated risk now and then.

"It is good to know there is only one Viktor Nacht, but maybe it is no longer necessary to lead with this rebuttal."

You know, your right .. I'm done. Call me on it if I let it slip after this post. Let Arnold know I'm through. I'm sure he'll sleep better at night! :) [BTW, excellent cheap shot on Viktor. You seem to know him personally -do you?]

"It helps to have a mission. Greed is good, but it will only give you insight into the casino mentality. It will not sustain you through the years... if that is what you want."

Greed was only half my answer. So what "mission" is it that sustains your play?

"As to our office politics, you seem to place a lot of stock in what has happened in public the past couple of months. People get irritated sometimes and eventually things blow over after mistakes have been made, corrected, and wounds heal. Apologies usually occur in private. At least I certainly hope so."

Point taken. Would you say I should make one, am due one, or neither? I'm not beneath apologizing when one is due. MY last was to a guy named "Rhetorich" some months ago. I made a bad assumption about him, he assured me I was wrong, and I apologized -in pubic.

"To get to the long run on the internet, it is probably better to stand back from battles that do not directly concern you. It is easy to have one's opinion be misinformed because there is a lot of 'secret stuff' that never makes it to the airwaves."

Secret stuff, how mysterious. The absolute very first time I posted in on that deal was when Radar accussed / implied Nacht made it a businees practice of selling illegally reproduced copyrighted material. I believe Radar to be in the loop over there, knew better, and I took them to task over it. Their cheif accuser even owned a set of the tainted documents himself. Of course he had a long convoluted explanation for why he had them. But long convoluted explanations are a little like, well you know. They smell bad and everybody has one. But none the less, that particular incident exploded into what it did and they became hysterical. And cut me off. They did cut me off, right? I know you know.

One last thing on that; Snyder promised he would know if those items sold through RGE were in violation? Did he ever figure it out? Don't you think he should have figured it out before letting Radar post the accusation?

"You would never think that just one year ago the entire free forum at BJ21 had to be shut down and reconfigured. Now it is more vital and relevant than it has ever been."

Yes, I remember. That is what got me to reading RGE. This place stunk. But now, a lot of hard work later, a pretty decent site to learn from.

" ... I have to admit your prognosis is not favorable if you can't get through books like Blackjack Attack and Blackbelt in Blackjack."

Did I mention Blackbelt in Blackjack? That book is a piece of cake. I comprehend BJA II -just one page at a time.

"If you really want to supercharge your curriculum, since you don't often play, you should join Green Chip."

Another point taken.

"But blackjack is not like any other activity... it has juice."

Ahhh, maybe this is your mission. I agree, it does.

As a counter, you are helping the casinos make more money by keeping BJ the most popular table game.

Not necessarily. I agree the phenomenon of counting brings more money into the casinos because of all the free advertising provided by books and sites like this. But as individual players, we can do a lot to trim casino profits.

If you sample the number of players at a random table before and after I sit down, you'll almost inevitably find the number dwindling. I look miserable, even when I'm winning, and I'm fond of throwing out little quips about the double bust rules (One lady blurted "I knew it!" and headed straight for the exit. My proudest moment ;-}), and how unfair it all is, and how the dealer gets 21 322% more often than the player.

Too bad the casinos do not pay for that kind of service. Instead they are a paranoid about card counters.

Ah, but are they really paranoid, or are they just milking the card counting "myth" (many of them actually do think it's a myth) for even more free advertising? Ever wonder why locals are so rarely busted?

ETF

I played for couple of years full-time. I quit in part for the reason you brought up about not contributing to society. While I could discern some marginal benefits of my playing for the greater whole, those benefits, I could see, were at best just marginal.

The one thing I could not ignore is that I was producing very little for others during my times of play and traveling. Yes, the income enabled me to produce stuff while I was NOT playing and traveling, but the time spent playing and traveling were times of essentially no production for others. Better that I was also producing for others while earning a livelihood, I reasoned.

Alll of that notwithstanding, I had a ball! Yo, that was fun!! Also, I am proud of the accomplishment of having been a counter. This made me subsequently stronger in other, more generative, pursuits. So, it wasn't an entirely "Hostess Twinkies"-quality pursuit.

I posted earlier in this thread about my having played full-time and then quitting in large part because of misgivings about not producing anything for society at large while in the process of playing the BJ (though what I did with the money after playing could be more productive than the time spent traveling and counting cards). I mentioned that I had a great time while playing, and it invigorated me over the long haul (and, boy, was it ever "my bag"!) but the relative lack of productivity during the act of card counting (CCing) I just could not continue to ignore.

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Card Counters
prey on ignorance
******************

Piegow touched upon another significant reason I quit CCing. Not only does the CC not produce anything of significant value while in the act of playing, but -- worse than that -- the CC actually preys on the ignorance of the ploppies to gain sustenance. A good CC does not want anyone in the casino -- neither the casino management nor the customers -- to wake up and smell the coffee about card counting. Card counting = wanting and needing others in the casino to remain stupid.

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Preying on ignorance
is worse than being
non-productive
*********************

Preying on ignorance is worse than the neutral outcome of simply not having produced anything. Profitable card counting involves an active exploitation of ignorance. After all, it is the ploppies' ignorance from which all the card counter's financial blessings ultimately flow, and the CC could not exist without it. The CC hopes for and exploits others' ignorance (the ploppies' and the casinos') to survive.

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Relieving ignorance
vs. preying on ignorance
************************

Getting paid to prey on ignorance is a whole different ballgame, morally, than getting paid to relieve others from the results of their ignorance, as a good doctor or a good car mechanic does.

A good doctor wants to work himself/herself out of a job; a good doctor wants all to be healed and be more enlightened in their self-care. A good card counter, on the other hand, very much does not want ignorant casino management to go away, and needs ploppies to remain ignorant so he/she can get at their money. A good CC does not want the ploppies to be enlightened and take of themselves on the blackjack table.

It would be better for society at large if the card counter used the understanding of the machinations of the casinos to advance the education of the ploppies and to more actively and openly resist the financial vitality-sapping actions of casinos (thorugh lawsuits or letters to the editors, to name two examples). To use a Jesus analogy, it's like the casinos are sort of the money changers, and the card counter, instead of flipping over the tables and loudly declaring the whole scene tainted, as he/she is often very qualified to do, instead quietly sucks away a cut of the money changer's booty. The card counter aligns himself/herself with the interests of the casino. Yes, there is marginal value societally to diminishing the casino's take, but this is outweighed by the fact that the CC's interests -- when the CC (often) knows better -- remain very in line with the casino's.

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Casino operators
and card counters are
dynamic and innovative
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I want to recognize and extol the dynamism and entrepreneurialness and resourcefulness that is involved in becoming a successful card counter or casino operator. Rising to these positions from the mass of ignorant ploppies involves a process of rising above the landscape of casino operations and masterfully exerting a measure of command over these operations. These are good traits to develop; better that these traits of dynamism and relative mastery be developed and exercised than lying around being a lifeless lump of slothful protoplasm with a pop-tart, joint and TV. These laudable traits of dynamism and resourcefulness, however, once applied to the casino environment, can be applied to a greater macrocosm. Card counters and casino operators, while accomplished, can "do better than that," as the saying goes.

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I ain't walkin'
on water
****************

Just in case you all think I think I'm holier than thou, I'm not. I loved (and still like) the concept of card counting. I "get" it; I "get" the obsession. Like, I have a deck of cards by the john, and deal myself hands sometimes, just for the joy of it. The cards feel good in my hands. I love the whole process on a visceral level. At the same time, logic leaves me no option but to see that one can do better for the society than to count cards.

An indication that I still have a foot in the world of the casinos is that I am really into equity trading -- and not always with an alturistic eye on the outcome. Despite my periods of self-centeredness, just as was the case with card counting, I find myself compelled to ask myself, how could I be doing more for society at large? How much am I just sucking off the ignorance of other traders? I find myself asking myself deeply, "How can I be a successful equity trader and maximize the benefit to others?" But I'm not always thinking that way, by any means. Sometimes I am just focusing on how I can make more money, and not thinking about the repercussions of my obsessing. I'm not giving all the much of a s___ about others.

I'm saying all of this to explain that I'm not being the Pope, here. I'm just sharing what I see, that's all.

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BJ21.com is a
most-generative
environment
****************|

I laud BJ21.com for being a long-term salon that has always accomodated divergent points of view, as long as there are no personel attacks. Thus, I don't feel uncomfortable sharing my perspectives, here.

The really good stuff occurs on the Green Chip (can't speak for the Black Chip pages -- I didn't play at that rarefied level). A most nourishing exchange of ideas occurs there -- and the discussions are not merely confined to blackjack. The posts are collectively high-caliber, and you will find yourself being elevated time and again in reading the thinking of this educated and insightful crew. It is truly more than just a blackjack message board; it is at times more of a salon. I recommend the Green Chip pages.

Kill all the card counters (I'm sure the casinos would love to) ploppies will continue to lose.

If I were not there the idiot next to me would even faster since I slow the game down...so in a way I actually save the ploppies money by playing my two spots. We are both playing against the casino, not each other.

bigplayer said it first, but this is my thought also.

Do you really think that if all counters were removed from the equation, the ploppies would lose any LESS money? Or, would the casino simply pocket more at the end of the day?

The counter is taking away the casino's money .. not the ploppies.

And permit me if I may to say that if you have switched from card counting to day-trading, your contribution to society is not much, if any, different.

I personally don't feel the need to justify either activity, nor should you. Your not holding anybody up at gun point in either endeavour.

It's what you do with your free time -and money -that will define you as a person.

Good luck to you.

Back-counting which occurs in many casinos here in Australia definitely results in Ploppies losing at a faster rate. The large number of counters mean that half the positive betting opportunities are quickly dived on chewing up good cards for all !

Considering the social worthiness of wagering for income, I can recall a similar argument in horse racing. Florida is our country's second largest thoroughbred breeding state. Depending how you set up parameters for measurement, pari-mutuel wagering constitutes the second or the fourth largest employer within Florida, with thoroughbreds providing the bulk of the handle. So I submit that the professional track patron, the guy (and there are in reality remarkably few of them) who splits his year between the summer and winter racing seasons [I'm talking pre-Simulcast here, BTW] making three or four sizeable Win wagers per week in close-to-lock situations is really supporting an industry that provides a living for multiple thousands of people and families. This is hardly immoral.

I agree with Samoht that this is a great thread.