The rationales of Pro BJ card counter

I have "worked' as a card counter full time for 11 years but never feel comfortable about it. I asked about the integrity of card counting several years ago at bj21 but didn't get satisfied answers then. I post again for any thoughts. I consider this a big obstacles for my being continuous as a pro despite I have made good money from this "profession".

of card counting. It is mathematically valid if that's what you mean. It also is not morally wrong if that's what you mean. A few years ago I thought my career was about up because of the number of multiple barrings I'd gotten. My hours of play were getting lower each year. But with expansion of the industry into so many new places I will probably get in over 600 hours this year, the most in my last seven, and think I can easily get in that many hours next year. There are a couple of markets that I haven't even begun to tap. Yes, it will dry up eventually. But the market nationwide has to become saturated before it can mature. Once a pro player just comes to the realization that he must spend half his life on the road then it is very doable.

Most pros do belong to teams of some sort, even if it is just two or three guys. Very few fight the variance alone. And most successful pro gamblers are also quite into machine play as well, as the comps and cashbacks make it a great way to fill the extra trip time that you can't realistically spend at the bj tables. I'm not that into machine play, but should be. It is sure a heat free way to get room and meals.

I think you should be proud of having a job where your mind is used as such a tool. There is great integrity in intelligence. The misinformation that the public holds in regards to Blackjack is yet again a prime example of the ignorance of many persecuting the abilities of the minority. Society has never looked fondly upon those who seek a better way than the norm.

I think you are from a foriegn country, and I'm not sure you use the word "integrity" in the same way we do here in the US. To me, having "integrity" means having good moral character, honesty, etc. I think most card counters have good character, but many do not. In particular, I know of some posters to these sites who are, in fact, con men making their living off of counters, or would be counters, instead of counting. And I suspect there are many more of these that I am not aware of.

Now I think card counting is very moral, because I believe the proliferation of casinos is a "bad thing," at least the way it's evolved in the US. Even if I thought casinos were a good thing, I wouldn't have a problem with card counting; however, I might have a hard time doing it as a full time profession, and I might have a hard time lying outright in a casino "for cover." But since I view casinos as "the enemy," I have no scruples about lying for cover. I think it is similar to lying to your torturers, in time of war, to save your life, or your buddies' lives. However, the lies I tell are not, to my knowledge, harmful to anyone but the casinos. I've never had to "bear false witness against my neighbor."

I go way out of my way to try to be honest to my fellow advantage players, since I think we need that stability. I also tell people , in and out of the casinos, about my losses, but keep fairly quiet about my wins. I think this kind of honesty is bearing good witness, by discouraging people from gambling. I can't think of anyone who needs encouragement to gamble more than they do. I can think of a lot of people who need to be dragged away forcibly from the slot machines and table games.

There is the issue of whether card counting constitutes a productive use of our time on this planet. There are also issues of stability and responsibility -- whether or not gambling is a reliable way to take care of your dependants (probably not) and a good example to set for your children. A lot of this comes down to personal circumstances and what options are available to each individual. Each person must decide for himself whether card counting is a good way to spend their time, here on earth, and how MUCH time to allocate.

Card counting, in itself, isn't immoral, but devoting your life to card counting may well be immoral for most people.

ETF

The Talmud identifies dice players and pigeon flyers as persons who are not to be permitted as witnesses in a Jewish court .

Dice players were viewed as thieves. They tried to steal money from other people, steal time from their family, and steal time from studying the Torah.

The point of pigeon flying was gambling on the outcome and thus most pigeon flyers were also considered thieves following the above logic. (However, it was ok to fly pigeons merely as a hobby or to deliver messages.)

Card counters should not, in my view, be viewed as harshly. We do not steal from other people. We merely compete against a professional organization for cash prizes.

Piegow

"We merely compete against a professional organization for cash prizes."

Now there is a fresh take.

Of cousre on The Price Is Right, I don't remember any of the contestants having to pay Bob Barker when they lost. :)

Card counting, in itself, isn't immoral, but devoting your life to card counting may well be immoral for most people.

Many people think that card counting for a living is a waste. By the act of counting cards you do not improve society as a whole. But I believe that most people overestimate the amount their jobs contribute to society. For example, does a person serving food at McDonald's help society? Society would gain by your quitting and letting some teenager gain work experience.

You help society through your actions thoughout your life. You can add to other gambler's fortunes by providing advice on forums such as this. You can help people you know in need. I know that I have given more to charities since I started gambling. I have improved the living conditions of people that work for me. Working as a gambler you can add to society's understanding and acceptance of how a gambler works. BJTraveller has undoubtably done this in the Asian world through his writings.

I once spoke with a person who said she could not gamble for a living because you did not produce anything or help society. But she could double the money she could make at a straight job. I pointed out that she could just work fewer hours as a gambler and volunteer in a homeless shelter a few hours each week. She would be helping society more and working less. She replied that working in a homeless shelter would not pay enough to be worth her time. People are often unable to separate their contributions to society from their day job.

I know that when I met BJTraveller he was a great guy. Very entertaining stories. Seemed like a nice person. A pleasure to talk to. The very fact that he worries about stuff like this means that he is a better person than most non-gamblers.

Math Boy

... the more time you spend doing a thing, particularly if you work hard at it, the more is becomes your life.

OTOH, many people hate their jobs, and rationalize that if it were fun, they'd have to pay to do it, rather than get paid. But even the floor scruber thinks to himself "I am contributing."

ETF

is to support himself without being a burden on friends, family , or the government. If you do this then you are helping pull the wagon. If you don't do this then you're riding in the wagon. Your greater work in life is not done for pay.

instead of doing something "worthwhile". Casinos "entertain" people. People gamble at their own will. Card counters use casinos' facilities making casinos their "customers" unwillingly. What is the "value" of card counting for the society?

We are making sure the casinos pay a fair price for all the free advertising they derive from the discovery that blackjack is beatable via card counting. If it weren't for people like us, only suckers would go to the casinos with the idea "I can win, because Dr. Thorp says it's possible." That would make a mockery of Thorp, and all his intellectual heirs.

Also, there's nothing wrong with doing something profitable "just for fun," though, as I say, most people like to feel they're contributing to society at least some of the time.

ETF

BJ Card counting is the way of preventing casinos win too much from morons. It contributes to the efficiency of making fair price for blackjack. I like that. Thanks.

If so, you may have a point.

Jesus was an economic burden on his friends and patrons.

into enough to feed a huge crowd you might be an exception. He also knows the exact time to put the net on the other side of the boat to get all the fish. He earned his keep. But I still believe that self-sufficiency is the most important thing. It could also be argued that he was performing his function in the ministry and the food, shelter, etc was the contribution of others in the group.

is that it pays your bills, pays the governments bills through taxes, and provides you the freedom to do more productive/helpful things for society if you wish.

You can, for example, spend six months counting cards and then spend six months volunteering in public service.

I see card counting no different from any other investment vehicle. What does a card counter produce....he produces MONEY! That money could go to the bottom line of Harrah's or it can go to giving you the freedom to help society in the manner you choose. For exmaple, you could give 50% of your profits to the poor and destitute.

As bad as I hate to disagree with you; I do.

A card counter does not produce money. Re-allocates it, maybe, but nothing is produced. The card counter does not manufacture anything of value. The card counter is not in the service or entertainment industy. He simply makes bets with others and -in your case -wins more than he loses -enough so that he can support himself, his family, and maybe have time to give back to society.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

In ET Fans "Integrity" post he seems to be jumping through all kinds of hoops to justify card counting to himself. There is no justification needed. It is what it is.

For some, it is a respectable way to feed your family. For some, it is a hobby. For some it's a problem.

Well, you can't win them all. The Talmud doesn't like dice players and pigeon flyers? I guess another sacred book hits the dust! What do the Upanishads (sp?) say about those actitivites?