I thought the contribution pro athletes made was entertainment. Unless you write a book, I'm not sure how card counters do that. Most of us don't put on a show, we even go out of our way to avoid detection.
ETF
The moral argument is the reason I went into counting in the first place. Casinos are evil. I would like to put them out of business. I know I can't do it alone, but if everyone behaved as I do, the casinos would be toast.
"There is no justification needed. It is what it is."
Absolutely everything we do requires justification. I don't want to turn everyone into Mother Teresa, but if you don't give any thought AT ALL to the morality of what you do, you are a soulless being -- a moral eunuch.
ETF
You must feel comfortable enough to do it for 11 years! Even after you didn't get satisfactory responses "several years ago" from BJ21 posters. It sounds like the money is all you need to feel comfortable. No one forces any one to do anything. If you can't reconcile it with other professions, then do something else. People, myself included, have a tendency to seek rationalization and justification from others when we are doing things we can't internally reconcile. Yet we still go on doing those things because of what we get out of it (money, vicarious pleasure, excitement, recognition, etc.) Take a good look at why your doing it regardless of how society may view it. What others think really doesn't matter. Everyone has an opinion and the majority isn't always right. Be true to yourself and your feelings. But remember, feelings change. If you continue to do anything that you don't feel comfortable doing then you are a slave to whatever is bonding you to it.
BJ card counting is the best means for me to make money at present. I don't like it but I have to do it for money which make me uncomfortable. That's why I am posting here to get some inputs on making myself a little bit comfotable about it cause I have to do it until I can find something else that have a better reward/feeling balance. I don't care about how other people or the society sees me, I only care about my own feeling. Thanks for the inputs.
Your overriding motive of money is shared by 99.99% of the workers uncomfortable with their jobs.
Integrity in anything you do is how you do it, seldom what it is; that is integrity as honesty. Some professions have a low integrity index; nearly requiring selling out integrity for money.
Integrity can sometimes refer to the long time sustainability/viability of a business. Being uncomfortable with this definition of integrity is sensible in the gambling profession.
I am not certain of which way you are using the term integrity, but from your concern for you feelings, not the opinions of others; I think you need to realize that the motive to make money itself is sometimes a source of discomfort no matter what you do or how you do it. If money is the root of all evil, how can you find comfort in finding it (money)?
ET Fan, let me get this straight
-you went into card counting because of the moral argument, because casino's are evil, and because they need to be taken down? You realize you can't do it by yourself and wish others would join you so the casinos could be excised from the planet?
Not because it is fun, enjoyable, entertaining, exciting, or possibly lucrative?
In one of your earlier posts you "justified" for your self that lieing to the casino was OK because it is similiar to lieing to your captors in time of war. (I don't recall them capturing you and dragging you inside.)
Personally, I would say that if the ultimate demise of the casino industry is your only reason for card counting (and with all due respect, I don't think it is -I think you enjoy it -and BTW, it's Ok to enjoy stuff) you could direct your talent elsewhere and make a much bigger impact, sooner, than simply showing up and spreading red 1 to 12.
I never said I don't enjoy blackjack. I enjoy blackjack. That is not inconsistent with anything I've said in this thread. Even though I enjoy it, I would NOT have done it, if I didn't believe it to be a productive, and very moral, use of my time.
I also would not have done it if I didn't think it'd be fun. I do things for multiple reasons. Is that a tough concept? I never said it had to be either/or.
You, on the other hand, said: "There is no justification needed. It is what it is." [Emphasis added] With all due respect, that's a silly statement.
We are all responsible for the consequences of our actions. It might be fun to speed on the highway while drinking vodka, but it couldn't be justified in terms of risk verses ruin. Ruin to other people. (It might be justifiable if only your own safety was at stake.) Hence moral reasoning comes into play (you should try it, you might like it). It comes into play in every aspect of our lives, unless you're an eunuch. [Frank Sinatra voice:] "Or would you rather be a mule?"
ETF
Look, don't get all excited. I was simply trying to understand you. What you have said over the past several posts might be quantified in the following statement you made ..
"The moral argument is the reason I went into counting in the first place. Casinos are evil. I would like to put them out of business. I know I can't do it alone ..."
You and every good card counter out there will never put them out of business. If that's what you would REALLY like to do, your wasting your time and deluding yourself playing cards.
However, since as you say you enjoy it, then rock on, enjoy it, and knock 'em dead!
But needing moral justification for playing BJ, there isn't any. Anymore than shooting hoops, playing golf, or surfing [well, surfing might have moral justification :)]
And speaking of the moral high ground ..
".. moral reasoning comes into play (you should try it, you might like it)."
.. don't be so quick to stake it out as your singular domain. It's a long bumpy fall from grace my friend.
What is the contribution to society of stock brokers who can make millions of dollars for their investment firms and clients? Have they produced food, electricity, goods or art for the benefit of the public? No, they're just scavengers of the worst kind. That's the nature of their profession. It does not mean they're scavengers individually. They can do their job with integrity, seeking the best interest of their clients, and without cheating.
Card counting is another type of scavenging activity. You are taking money from the casinos. What do casinos do for a living? They offer games to the public where the public is a sure loser, and play opn their desire to gamble.
As a counter, you are helping the casinos make more money by keeping BJ the most popular table game. Too bad the casinos do not pay for that kind of service. Instead they are a paranoid about card counters. I have a job that I am beginning to hate, but I need it for the money. I don't feel uncomfortable about it. You should not feel uncomfortable as you are earning your dollars the hard way, by risking your own money at a game of skill where lady luck can sometimes override your skills. I think you should be proud of it.
'If you're having fun, you're not doing it right.'
The fact that he may be having fun only illustrates that this game is unpredictable over the short run... and that he is on a roll.
ET Fan is upholding the legacy of Thorp and on a moral mission to bring down the casinos. Anyone who thinks differently has not been following his saga very long.
It is the imperative to cut into their profits that drives him to put in the hours.
I have come to believe that 'having fun' is very far down the list of reasons why serious skilled players stay with it. Most of us are amoral in our approach, which may explain why in other areas of our lives are slightly more attuned to contributing to society. It is also easy to wonder why we put in the time when normal fluctuation withholds rewards for long periods of time. This is why you sometimes find pros muttering to themselves, "I need to get a life,' or "I hate gambling," as they leave the workplace. The value of card counting is that it allows us to spend time playing with an edge. This separates us from the great mass of casino patrons and in some cases pays all the bills and more.
I love blackjack and that is why I play. It most definitely is a trivial pursuit when stacked up against other activities that enrich the planet. Most people live lives of quiet desperation, so if at any time one is questioning the value of being a skilled player perhaps it is worth making something else in your life a priority. Playing golf or trading shares do not enrich society, either. If you really want to make a contribution to the world, coach a little league team.
and teach the little buggers how to count.
"ET Fan is upholding the legacy of Thorp and on a moral mission to bring down the casinos. Anyone who thinks differently has not been following his saga very long."
I was not aware of his mandate; I will certainly be more respectful of it in the future.
However, if I had a "moral mission" to bring down the casinos, I would not be wasting my time playing cards. What I should be doing is forming a 501(C)3 organization, raising money, hiring lawyers, accountants, and private detectives, lobbying Congress and every State Legislature I could speak to. I would be bringing class action lawsuits for all the many civil liberties they trample on every day. I would be suing every rent-a-cop, persoanlly, who even touched me briefly as I was being barred. I would be suing them for the personal and financial information they swap among themselves without my consent. I would be doing the same for the Griffin etals as well as the companies that supply them their cameras, film, and ashtrays. I would sue them for second hand smoke inhalation and every other ridiculous thing I could imagine. I would make all their lives a living hell through the newspapers and through the courts. Thats what I would be doing if I had a mission.
Thankfully -I don't. At least not this one.
But playing cards? Like Sean Connery said in the Untouchables .. only a WOP would bring a knife to a gun fight.
"It is the imperative to cut into their profits that drives him to put in the hours."
If that is true, and I am not doubting it is, he is tilting at windmills. And I feel sad for him. Because it truly is an empty, hollow, endeavour. If he pursues this course, when he is old, he will look back and find that all counting cards did was provide himself and his family a living (hopefully) and a really great life if he is lucky. Meanwhile, the casinos, never even knew he was around except for the few times they threw him out.
ET Fan can justify his playing BJ however he wants, and by the way I hope for him the very best every time he goes out -every time.
But card counting is simply a skill set applied to a game played for money. That's it. Any other grander nobler plan is, in my opinion, I'm sorry, just delusional.
But hey, I've deluded myself enough times through the years. Sounds like ET Fan is young enough; he still has a few good delusions coming.
:)
Life is too short to spend time doing things you don't enjoy. I spent 20 years in a profession that paid well but I didn't really enjoy. It wasn't until later in life I realized I enjoyed other things, which I could make a living at---BJ being one of them. I've learned when we take care of our innermost needs, the money usually takes care of itself.
Good luck in your search for true happiness Grasshopper!
Let's look at this through a lawyer's eyes. You are a lawyer, right?
I am not sure but it seems like you live somewhere that does not have quick access to casinos and that you use the KO system. I seem to remember that you first arrived on the scene about a year ago as a deferential neophyte looking to have some questions about comparing various systems answered. Considering the comprehensive quality of your posts during this time, and the rapid learning curve you exhibit, I am guessing that you are a lawyer. Plus you suggest that the answer to fighting evil in Casino Kingdom must ultimately involve litigation to be effective.
Your sense of fair play and a somewhat Republican approach to internet politics makes me guess that you are a midwesterner like me. But far from the Chicago area or Detroit. You don't mention where you play. Perhaps you are a midwesterner who has moved to Florida. This is all idle speculation which you should feel free to clear up, as it is not intended to pigeon-hole you in any one way or another. It is just that most of us know plenty about each other after being here for a year or more. You remain something of a cipher.
The pursuit of profitable play is a child-like enterprise that appeals to the sportsman inside each of us. We have various reasons for prefering card games to other activities, but I think we are all united by a common desire for competition and the thrill of victory. ET Fan, if I may be so bold to speculate... might have grown up playing bridge, gin rummy or chess and found it a pleasure to out-maneuver other players by creating an edge mathematically. His understanding of probability is practically flawless. There are many here who also have a talent for understanding mathematics and probability theory who have applied this to the joy of gaming.
After years of playing, I would say that any serious skilled player will be significantly ahead. The odds of still losing after a few cycles of NO while playing a consistent game with intelligence are statistically meaningless. Those who inhabit the left side of the bell curve will tap out or just give up due to frustration. So let's assume the sample of all skilled players with many years of experience...e.g. Traveler, DD', bigplayer, ET Fan, Math Boy, Math Prof, are pursuing a profitable enterprise. This is what makes it fun... along with the knowledge that you are playing with an edge.
What gives serious players pause is the time expended in reaching this plateau where the sample size practically guarantees success due to the number of trials. This is not apparent to young players like yourself. For these giants, ( I am not including myself in this group for obvious reasons) it is like punching the timeclock at a noisy factory. Sure, there are other incentives including comps, shows, cashbacks, great meals, and fine accommodations to be had for free.
But after a while it is important to have something to tell yourself when you look at that haggard mug in the morning after you have spent all night trying to dig out from a five figure loss. Something to confirm you did the best you possibly could...other than a thorough understanding of combinatorial analysis and playing strategies. Something other than the consolation that you have just driven a few miles closer to your destination of achieving NO.
So being intelligent people, they delve into their psyches and find good reasons to justify their choice of this pursuit over all others. It really is little more than adding up cards...watching shuffles...dodging heat...calculating chip stacks....etc, etc. Hardly engaging the left brain or bringing about world peace. Being individuals they all have different reasons for persisting in this activity at the end of the day. Easy money, the action, the satisfaction of science, the thrill of subterfuge, a longing to make cheaters and blood-suckers pay..... you name it and it exists. For some it inspires a choice to write and teach...activities that are rewarding all by themselves.
Most high level players could quite easily be making six figures in some other profession if they desired a different career. Some have gone on to more profitable arenas...Schlesinger and Thorp come to mind as true believers who became financial stalwarts in investing. Others have formed teams and made millions. Most who have really learned how to play now only wonder if they will be allowed to play. If this were not a very profitable enterprise we would not be discussing it here or on the several other club sites.
But as a lifestyle it stinks. Too much travel and secrecy. Isolation and solitude are your professional companions. Too many opportunities go awry and the only recognition you get for being the best in this sport is your picture in the Griffin Hall of Fame. There are many contradictions to being a professional gambler. It leads one to wonder. The reasons one continues are not delusional and may change over time as you grow and adjust to the pressures of staying on the job. It helps to have a mission. It is not being a coal miner, but the air is just as bad. At least working in the foundry you know you will be getting paid on any given shift. The dedication necessary to make a living as an advantage player is unquestioned. You cannot do it any other way.
Yet you want to make a place for yourself in this house of cards. What are your motivations for playing? What do you envision the future holds for you? Do you play often, or are you one of those people who just enjoy the company of gamblers and the intelligence we employ? I realize that this is a free page that everyone has access to, but loosen up a little and give us a little story now and then. Since you don't have Green Chip membership and apparently are not going to be welcomed at BJFO any time soon, why not entertain us here? You have some interesting insights and opinions and we would like to know where you are coming from.
Besides, BJ21 is by far the best place to engage in discussions of philosophy on Planet Blackjack, as evidenced by the endless comments that threads like this inspire.
Don't be shy, now. I never met a lawyer who was shy.
Regards,
scobee
Isn't that right, ODAAT? Leap and the net will appear. If you bring a passion to what you do, you will be providentially rewarded.
Of course, this does not apply to the game of golf. {:-)
But card counting is simply a skill set applied to a game played for money. That's it. Any other grander nobler plan is, in my opinion, I'm sorry, just delusional.
So this is your idea of "more respectful." Yes. You must be a lawyer. It must be wonderful to be able to summarize, and judge, a persons entire life in a few paragraphs based on hearsay. More absolutes: "... skill set applied to a game played for money. That's it. Any other grander nobler plan is, in my opinion, I'm sorry, just delusional." Who died and made you God?
ETF
There are many, many successful people, who truly feel guilty about their personal success. If I was successful, I wouldn't feel guilty. Actually, I don't feel guilty, assuming that I have a modicum of success. Yet, that's exactly what afflicts many people [you only need to look at Hollywood to see multiple examples] and I suspect, that that is what is contributing to your feeling.
Why do I suspect this? A person who can travel the globe, who has the financial wherewithal to live the type of lifestyle that you apparently live, [of course, being a nomad....not that you are, you may well have a family with healthy and happy children, a loving wife, and a supportive family, but I didn't quite draw that inference from your BJF Forum article] but who has to put up with the peculiarities of advantage play, not to mention the people, both casino personnel and the public, can exact its toll. The fact that you're "SUCCESSFULL" at this, while seeing all the less fortunate people in all the locales you visit, can easily make one feel guilty.
Scobee 1 , in another post to someone else, suggested they coach little league [baseball], which is a type of "giving back" to a community, for ones good fortune. There's a place in the Phillipines, [as well as many like it all over the earth] where children dive into a river [can you say sewer] for coins, as there are families there that give new meaning to the word poverty, something most Americans, [yes, even those considered to be poor] can't imagine.
Please accept my apologies if this sounds like I'm psychoanalyzing your dislike for what you're doing, [because it is, and it sounds like you want affirmation] but as everyone either has, or will, point out, there are lots of ways to relieve these feelings. I just think that they are guilt feelings, based on success, as opposed to the feeling of non-contributions to society bulls___that makes people actually FEEL better for their success by making themselves feel worse [guilt] because their not giving back their fair share.
If you really feel like you want to give to society, go back to school and become a doctor, or a firemen, paramedic, policeman, greenpeace, or United Way volunteer, or open up a soup kitchen, etc.
My suggestion, do what you do best, and give to charities, write a book, [in English please :)] and share some insights into your success as a [sshhhh] AP/gambler. Anything that will help people lose less to casinos, is a worthwhile endeavor as well.
You're probably one of the good guys, and that's good enough.. really.
All the best
cheers
bfb
Of course the reward is in having the courage to leap regardless of the outcome. It's the old adage of "having tried and failed is better than to not have tried at all." Being true to yourself while being respectful and tolerate of your fellow man/woman is very important.
Of course, I couldn't do this without reading threads like this and knowing what the probable outcomes are. The support I get from this site and communication with seriously experienced AP's is extremely important to my play. Thank you all for making this so much fun. I feel so grateful to be doing something that is totally different from the "norm".
Yes, I thought I was respectful.
No, I'm not a lawyer.
I didn't summarize or judge anything based on hearsay -my post was only responding to what I thought I heard you say.
Nobody died and made me God .. as I stated, in my opinion, I don't find card counting particularly grand or noble. I do have great respect however for those that do it well, which, believe it or not, I think would include you.
I still find the idea that a casino with a net worth of millions, possibly billions, being taken down by a card counter with a six figure bankroll and a 2% advanatge -delusional. Why they sweat the heat is beyond me sometimes.
Your recall and perception is amazing .. with one giant flaw .. I�m not a lawyer.
Unlike what Arnold Snyder and Radar O�Reilly maintain, I�m not Viktor Nacht either. (I should really give that a rest, and some day I will. Just not today.)
I am not sure my personal history is all that interesting, but since you asked, I�ll give you a snap shot.
I do live in fly-over country and I don�t have quick access to casinos. That is a bummer for me. You say my learning curve was rapid; I say I still feel very ignorant corresponding with people (you and ET Fan included) who have probably forgotten more about BJ than I�ll ever learn. I have never held myself out to be anything other than a journeyman card counter. The first book I read was Richard Canfield�s. The first count I learned was KO. I switched to HILO some months back �and here is one of my delusions �so that some day I might become a decent ST�er. I doubt I�ll ever learn an advanced count. My bank roll is smallish, but growing. I can spread red with a fair amount of security. Another delusion �someday I too will have the opportunity to play more and for higher stakes. I hope ET Fan does not single handedly run all the casinos out of business before that day comes.
My motivation for playing? Probably the same as most others .. greed, beating a smart guy out of his money at his own game, greed, being able to do something well that others only think they can do, greed, personal satisfaction, greed, hitting a big score and dodging the big beats, greed, sneaking in � sneaking out, greed, earning a little tax free cash (oh, come on �. ), greed, beating the �man�, greed, the thrill of victory, greed, putting myself on the line, greed. Sound familiar?
Unlike ET Fan and others, my understanding of most things related to BJ is flawed. I struggle with each new concept. Reading �Blackjack Attack� is like trudging through molasses for me. You know, I read a post where some guy stood on 14 v Ace and acted like it was the right thing to do. I immediately think I�m the ignorant one and start trying to figure out why would anybody do that!
As to BJFO .. you got that right, I am persona-non-gratta over there. The wild thing is I had a lotta respect for Snyder before the last several months went down. I�ve read all his stuff. Much of what he said has no doubt shaped my view of BJ. But when they decided to call Nacht out into the street, the knee jerk junior high school hysterics were almost un-imaginable. I thought Snyder and Curtis to be �at a minimum �smart guys. But that ordeal became so wild you could almost tell what days their lawyers called by their own posts they were having to bust. And again, my opinion only, their sole motivation was to destroy a man and his business. I don�t know if Nacht is trustworthy, I don�t know if you are, but I saw Snyder and Curtis in action. Spoke volumes to me. My sin? Calling it like I was seeing it. That�s it. Not a lot of tolerance over there. And that�s the irony �I thought if anyone would defend his position with vigor it would be Snyder. He just simply chose to lock me out. I�ve either forgotten my password or they shut down my log on. The former is a possibility!
As to entertaining you .. I prefer, much to Parker�s dismay I�m sure, to do my �entertaining� at RGE. When I was new, I gravitated to that site. I owe Parker, Schlesinger, and Company a huge debt for the patience and knowledge they afforded me then and now. I�ve had a post or two busted by Parker, and in retrospect, well deserved.
I read this site everyday, but post seldom. I�m still trying to learn. What I really have of BJ value to impart is limited.
One last thing on the ET Fan idea of breaking the evil casino�s by plying his advantage trade. The Binion dude that just sold out to Harrah�s .. for $1.45 billion. That�s Billion with a B. Forget about black. You couldn�t play purple at a 2% advantage and make a dent in that one guy. And there are scores of him.
Finally, as to your meandering discussion of the high level serious player and his lifestyle. Get a grip man. It ain�t that bad. You speak of a coal miner. I bet I could find more than one coal miner who wishes he had the intelligence and/or skills to do what say -DD� -does. Do you know any serious advantage player ready to strap on a miners helmet?
You say serious advantage players could earn six figure salaries somewhere. No doubt that�s true. But you better count that cost before you jump! Bad bosses, bad hours, intrusive unexpected projects. Each year I work an eight week stretch approx 60-70 hours per week. I�ll hit a stretch where I�m at the office everyday, for thirty days in a row, a minimum of five hours a day. It�s a drag. Saturdays, Sundays, they all run together. But I�m thankful to be able to do it. Ninety percent of the world would trade places with me �or you �and I am very grateful.
No doubt life on the road is lonely from time to time. So was John Candy selling those shower curtain rings. Wanna trade jobs?
The advantage players quest for bringing meaning to his life through his job is no different than any other regular guy who has been staring a mortgage in the face for the better part of his life, trying to raise his kids, and do right by his family. It�s no different.
Well, that became quite lengthy. Sorry. My bad.
Probably should have e-mailed this direct and spared others the boredom and myself the catcalls from the far reaches of the BJ internet. Oh well.
Knock �em dead, ET Fan, where ever you are!
