Post of the Month wins $100 for Adhoc

... in response to questions raised by some players about the issue. Adhoc was gracious enough to take the time to research the matter and tell folks what the state of the law was in such a situation. As to whether or not it would work, there are a lot of variables that would have to be considered, but so far as I know, no one has ever tried it. Assuming that such a strategy would not work is simply making a guess. Much of it would depend upon how serious the detained player is and how far he is willing to push it.

I think you would be surprised at how many green chippers never dream of becoming a professional player. Many of them are quite successful in their own professions. Adhoc is a successful lawyer and he is not the only one posting on GC. We have MD's, engineers, college professors, accountants, small businessmen and other successful professionals on GC who have probably never wanted to become professional blackjack players any more than they ever wanted to be professional bowlers, but they enjoy the game nonetheless and are willing to share their experiences and knowledge with others.

Do you have some insights about the game that you could share? It would be nice to see some of this much-vaunted professional experience that some posters claim to have evidenced by posts about the game, rather than posts that do nothing more than criticize those who are willing to share their knowledge. If one were to judge the blackjack knowledge of many of these critics by the content of their posts alone, one would have to conclude that it is zero.

It throws one more complication into the legal stew casinos would have to deal with. Litigation is expensive and the more complex the more expensive. Expense of litigation is factored into settlement.

The strategy is no lose legally. The person using it loses no legal advantage but may well gain something if litigation occurs. It would seem an advantage gambler would look at the long run.

LVHCM's only motive in bashing authors is to prevent even one more card counter from becoming successful and thus impacting on his/their livelihood. Eliminate the competition before it starts! That's LVHCM's motto and M.O. There is no concern for the "90%" of card counters who will lose, only worry about the other "10%". Add to that envy and jealousy of successful authors, and you get the whole picture.

It throws one more complication into the legal stew casinos would have to deal with. Litigation is expensive and the more complex the more expensive. Expense of litigation is factored into settlement.

The strategy is no lose legally. The person using it loses no legal advantage but may well gain something if litigation occurs. It would seem an advantage gambler would look at the long run.

You might as well say, "I've found this great new method of advantage play! I simply ask the dealer to reveal the hole card! After all, if the dealer refuses, the strategy is no lose legally, but you may well gain something if hole card revelation occurs! Kinda seems like an advantage player would look at the long run, n'est ce pas?"

Of course, if you have any actual experience with 21, you know that this strategy is a waste of time, since the dealer is not going to reveal the hole card. Likewise, if you have any actual experience with dealing with cops as a professional player, you know that the false arrest strategy is a waste of time, since the cops are not actually going to take the complaint seriously. This new ingredient in the legal stew doesn't improve the taste, Mike.

size of his bet, then you are quite foolish.

... ML is probably a far better judge of how cops would react to such an arrest than most of the naysayers in this thread. When a citizen's arrest is made, law enforcement officials have a statutory responsibility to carry out certain actions, according the adhoc's post. Many here seem to think they can just blow it off, but the law says otherwise. Real pros know that before there can be a takedown, there has to be a set-up.

As a prosecutor, an advisor to police, a lawyer for policemen charged with things, a sometimes teacher of police courses, hanging out with law enforcement people, and appearing in criminal court nearly every day of the week for the last thirty-three years next month I know a little something about the system and about law enforcement and law but perhaps I do not know as much about it as this guy does or thinks he does. Oh well, I accepted long ago there were a class of people who know more than anyone else on any subject. That is why they call that class "know it alls."

As a prosecutor, an advisor to police, a lawyer for policemen charged with things, a sometimes teacher of police courses, hanging out with law enforcement people, and appearing in criminal court nearly every day of the week for the last thirty-three years next month I know a little something about the system and about law enforcement and law but perhaps I do not know as much about it as this guy does or thinks he does.

Friends, let's take a wild stab and guess the esteemed Mr Lea is not talking about Nevada here. As anyone with any real world experience in taking on the casinos in Nevada knows, Nevada has its own unique interpetation of law where a favorable ruling for the player, regardless of the truth, is an exception rather than the rule. Again, as The Realist states, please let us know when this absurd idea works.

Oh well, I accepted long ago there were a class of people who know more than anyone else on any subject. That is why they call that class "know it alls."

As your posts vs Grosjean showed us all, you're exactly right on this one.

Now I understand. when Mike lee says something, it is true because bootlegger says it is so. and when bootlegger says something, it is true because mike lee says it is so. and of course let's not forget ad hoc because of course these two know that whatever he says is so. this mutual admiration society doesn't really tell us much about the real world and how l v cops actually behave, but that's ok because we must not talk about the real world, only mike lee's incredibly impressive credentials.

Let's see ... we have two experience lawyers who have told us where the law stands ... and then we have you. What are your credentials and what makes you an expert in the ways of Las Vegas cops or cops anywhere else?

No one is suggesting that the notion of false arrest fits every situation or will always work. What adhoc did is inform us of the state of the law in Nevada on this issue. Whether or not it would work is really a question that would have to be answered on a case-by-case basis.

How many run-ins have you had with the Las Vegas police? How many times have you attempted to enlist their aid in such a situation? Please, give us the benefit of your vast experience in these matters. Is there something you can add to this debate without blowing out your hat?

The question is how would it hurt or help if one went to court. Following the law is not going to hurt you in court. It might very well help if court were a decision. If you never try something new and different which might work, that is your chickenshit way of looking at life. I prefer a different approach but, to each its own.

First, let's clear up something. The notion of "false arrest" has worked exactly ZERO times. This is not a unique or new brainstorm. Others have tried it in the past, and guess what? Metro laughed in their faces! You will NEVER get the police to file a report of "false arrest" for casino backrooming in the great state of Nevada. Now, let's stop pretending that this is a great, new idea thought of by the talented and gifted brothren of Green Chip. Let's accept this idea for what is - a misguided fantasy brought on by amateur players who have NEVER been backroomed during the course of their unprofitable playing careers.

Again, I ask Mike Lee, Bootlegger, and the illustrious Adhoc:

How many times have you been backroomed???

I would bet with the legal opinion of the gentlemen above over any three people that come to mind.

Tatoo, in this thread, you are a midget among giants. There is a difference between thinking and feeling; you need to do more of the former. Your opinion reminds me of a person who told me that "you can't win at Blackjack." I didn't argue with her, and it's probably pointless to disagree with you as well.

Mike Lee's credentials ARE impressive! Along with Don Schlesinger, he is listed as one of the Blackjack Masters on rge21. Between ML and DS, they probably have about 100 hours at the blackjack tables in the last 5 years. These are not guys you want to argue with. ML has put the notorious Clarke Cante to shame in their debate about the bow effect. Not only are ML's credentials impressive, but his casino experience is matched by none in the world of professional blackjack.

Perhaps you should read adhoc's POM post. False arrest isn't the issue. Unlawful detention is the issue and whether or not a person would have a right to make a citizen's arrest of those who are guilty of such an unlawful detention, as well as the legal requirements which must be met by law enforcement officials when such an arrest is made and the possible consequences for those law enforcement officials who fail to meet those requirements. Perhaps you would prefer to continue without that knowledge. That is your right and your privilege. Living in ignorance is always a choice one can make.

But the state govt. is part, party, and parcel, with a hand in the til. Also cearley biased for that reason.

and still making 5-6 days a week.

this statement might bear some weight

"Adhoc is a successful lawyer and he is not the only one posting on GC. We have MD's, engineers, college professors, accountants, small businessmen and other successful professionals on GC who have probably never wanted to become professional blackjack players"

If ya'll had 1)the balls to do it

2)the ability to do it while maintain all other factors (hours, pay, benefits, etc.) same or better as in your present job

THEN I'd like to know if you would consider being a professional player. As an example, Adhoc stated at last year's GC party "why would I be full time if I can make alot more as a lawyer". What does that tell me? It tells me he is no where near as skilled as, say, Mike Russo or J Grosjean.

Perhaps you should read adhoc's POM post. False arrest isn't the issue. Unlawful detention is the issue and whether or not a person would have a right to make a citizen's arrest of those who are guilty of such an unlawful detention, as well as the legal requirements which must be met by law enforcement officials when such an arrest is made and the possible consequences for those law enforcement officials who fail to meet those requirements. Perhaps you would prefer to continue without that knowledge. That is your right and your privilege. Living in ignorance is always a choice one can make.

I can't speak for Tatoo, but I have read adhoc's ridiculous post and I can relate real world experiences that I have seen:

A teammate was hanging out at a certain Nevada casino. He had never been 86'd from this certain casino and was not even sitting at a table. He was promptly jumped by several security guards, handcuffed, and dragged into the back room. He was ordered to show ID, which of course he refused to do, insisting he be allowed to leave the property. When security informed him they were calling metro, his response was one of happiness, as this was exactly what he wanted.

Imagine his horror when the metro officers arrived, and he informed them of his ordeal, when they laughed in his face and proceeded to write him a citation for trespassing. Again, he had never even been given the chance to leave the property EVER. I can only imagine the roar of the officers if he would have informed them he was making a citizens arrest!

You are also assuming the regular beat patrolman even knows the trespass law. I have seen several who do not.

Bob Neresian has told me personally that he has asked metro to arrest security guards for kidnapping. Again, that request has been met with laughter. In any other non gaming jurisdiction, this behavior by security would at least be felony coercion. But we are not in a non gaming jurisdiction, we are in the great state of Nevada, where metro knows all too well where their bread is buttered.

For the Big 3 Liberal Triad to come on here and tell people who know what the real deal is, tell people who actually enter a casino more than once every three months how to act and what they should do, is an insult to our intelligence.

you speak of living of ignorance, and it fits you well.