KO count = Lost tons of money

Hello,

I've only lost money, lots, using the KO 8-full deck indices/system. It's a useless system, truly.

What is the best card counting system for an 8-deck shoe? I'm desperate.

Thank you!

Yokes

If it's h17 and no surrender.

All I an tell you is that I've used Fred Renzeys KISS III count for years and I'm very happy with it. I only play 6 deck shoes but you can use KISS III with any blackjack game. Good cards!

KO may not be the most sophisticated system, but it will give you an exploitable edge. BUT, for any system to work, you:
1. Must execute it without error.
2. Must chooses playable games.
3. Must use an appropriate spread to best the game, which will also necessitate and aggressive Wonging strategy for ^ and 8 deck games.
Must be properly bankrolled for the game in question.

In addition, short term results are meaningless...

I hate to disagree, but yes, in this case it's the system. KO system for shoe counts is the worst. It's practically useless. I had a 1-8 spread on 8-deck shoe in all cases. No errors. Rules were the best you can get: S17, DAS, Resplit, Late surrender, Insurance, etc.

This is not short-term results. This is over the period of 3 months. How long did you want to wait?! That's silly.

Will never use KO again.

I did not play "If it's h17 and no surrender."

All tables where S17, w/Late surrender, DAS, etc. Good rules.

Hi, I'll look at KISS III. But it's that also an unbalanced count that doesn't need conversion? Not sure that will be any better than the terrible KO count (which is also unbalanced). But I'll look at it...

thanks

This is not short-term results. This is over the period of 3 months. How long did you want to wait?! That's silly.

You might want to read the post linked below.

In Burning The Tables In Las Vegas Ian Andersen (an all-time great blackjack player) briefly mentions that he likes the KO count. Maybe you've just gotten a run of bad cards or possibly you're not keeping the count or you're betting is off?
All I can say for sure is that the KISSIII count has worked for me for years. Hope you find a count that works for you,best of luck!

Well Ian Andersen may have liked it, but I bet he never tried using it on an 8-deck shoe. Just does not work.

I'm very good at keeping the count and practice all the time. My count was on, and the count reached 40 (32 is the "hot zone") for a while numerous times during the three months. Didn't mean a thing though. Nothing but failure and money thrown away as my reward.

Have you tried the KISS III on an 8-deck shoe and won good money?

Well long term is relative, and short term is too. I went twice a week. KO count on 8-deck was so bad, so very bad.

I think 3 months, at a average of 8 times a month is a fair test of a count system.

It's a nice link, thanks. But that's assuming I'm not playing with those considerations. I am, and have done my homework.

Listen, to break it down, when the count is way past your "hot zone" or pivot point, the cards and decks are supposed to be in your favor. But with the KO count I've proven time and time again, it isn't. An unbalanced count like this that doesn't require a "true count" is not prudent to use in an 8-deck shoe. Going 8 times a month, month after month, has proven that.

I need a better system that is more accurate for an 8-deck shoe.

Sounds like you've just had a run of bad luck. Everybody on this board knows the feeling of pushing it out there in a high count only to see a bunch of stiff hands vs. dealer 20s and 21s.

Once the KO running count goes past the "pivot" point, the true count is >= 4. It's a mathematical fact. You need to push it out there. I like the advice from a poster on the other forum - "put in the hours and the dollars will come."

I'm now booking red ink after 6 straight months-off by 33% of my total bankroll. Before that I had a losing run of 15 months and dropped 62% of the bankroll. This game is not for sissies.

Learn to quit, or better: try a new system(!). That's outrageous. Since this game is not for sissies, you shouldn't be playing it.

It is, considering the amount of times I play during those three months against good rules. It's the system I used. But will never use it again. Trying the KISS III now...

I hate to disagree, but if the system is not correct, mathematically, for an 8-deck shoe, it should not be used. KO is not for an 8-Deck shoe. Trust me on this, I can show you my bank account ledger.

I need a system that will actually work, proven for an 8-deck shoe.

When a newcomer comes to these pages, seeking advice, over the years, the single most annoying trait is when, after professing to want to learn, he instead begins to "teach" us what he "knows" and what we don't know. The instant reaction from the veterans is to wonder why you came here in the first place.

Your conclusions are flat-out wrong. K-O is a perfectly viable system for any blackjack game. Page 176 of BJA3 compares systematically and extensively, Hi-Lo, Red Seven, and K-O, over all numbers of decks, rules, spreads, and playing methodologies. And while K-O, in most instances, underperforms Hi-Lo by about 3-5%, that is a far cry from saying that it "doesn't work" and is unsuitable for the 8-deck game. Winning $50 an hour, instead of $52, doesn't make a system "worthless."

You are frustrated because, to you, personally, investing three months of your time and money should have left you with a profit, so you are bitter and want to blame your personal negative variance on the count system you used. This is foolish and shows a lack of understanding of the endeavor you have embarked upon. Compared to dozens (perhaps hundreds) of players on this and other sites, your results are not only "normal," but are probably a lot better than the worst three-month stretches they have had using highly sophisticated, more intricate, and more profitable counts than K-O.

It has been my experience over the 35 years that I've been at this (writing and giving advice) that a small segment of the posters come with preconceived notions and it is impossible to disabuse them of their erroneous ideas. You may fall into that category, so don't expect this to turn into a debate as to who knows more about the game.

All I can tell you is that when the foremost blackjack computer programmer in the world, Norm Wattenberger, runs a simulation to explore a concept, he doesn't consider anything under 100 billion hands to be "reliable" enough. So, when you write to us about how K-O "doesn't work" because of your three months' worth of bad luck, you will understand how some of us react the way we do.

If there is one thing that I have written, oh, 500 times on these and other pages, over the years, it's that your personal results mean absolutely nothing from a mathematical point of view. Suppose another person had come on here and written: "I have just concluded the three greatest months of my life, playing blackjack. As a newcomer, I am using K-O, and I just can't seem to lose. I win every session I play. This is the greatest thing since sliced bread."

Now what?

Don