interesting

I have been researching card counting and came across this site and have found it to be very informative and also amusing. From reading the things that you folks have to say I get the impression that most of you don't respect casino personell (i.e. dealers and pit bosses) and in fact feel that they are not much brighter than the village idiot (correct me if I'm wrong). I wonder that those who seem to spend so much time in a casino can maintain such an opinion. I personally love what I do for a living and in fact spend a majority of my time off the clock researching blackjack;playing styles, history, tecniques, player profiling, and also playing the game. I spend 8 hours a day being called names that most people wouln't even call their dog, dealing with people that are so drunk they can't remember their own name, giving away thousands of dollars to people who seem to have forgotten such simple phrases as "please" and "thank you", all the time keeping a smile on my face and treating them just as nicely as though they were my own family. And for those of you who think that I come to the table and shuffle my cards thinking only of how much I want the chips in front of you and the money in your wallet to become the casinos money, think again. Most of the time I am rooting for the player hoping that you can walk away ahead and with a smile on your face because that is why I love my job. I have alot more I would like to say but I dont want you to feel I am flaming your boards, I just wanted to let you know the next time you walk into a casino and sit at the table remember that your dealer is a person too and our job deserves just a little more respect than it seems most of you give us.

I happened planning to write some complements of casino employees... sorry I was a little bit late. I was asked to leave close to 100 times... plus one this morning. Most barrings were very polite, several stood out and showed casino employees characters:
Philippine casino: I was asked politely to securit room 5

security guards waited me there, a guard took my

picture and showing a memo barring me. They then

asked me to teach them the way to win BJ
A casino executive who caught me counting, I befriended with him for some time so I said I was sorry. he said "No problem, counting is legal and your right, catching you is my duty. I count when play at casinos too."
I chatted with a csino manager once. He talked about card counting. I asked whether counting works or not? He said sure... but only to be done by Math PhDs.
Of course there are some bad apples, in all professions. Last night a manager of the casino barred me this morning asked for tips when I finished playing... I tipped. That was a dishonor move...

I have nothing personal against casino dealers, and I like to think that I show more respect for them than most of the drunken (and often rude) idiots who know nothing about the mathematical theories behind the game...you know, the ones who hold you personally responsible whenever they happen upon a streak of bad cards.

One of the reasons that I do not hold many casino managers or pit personnel in the highest esteem is because, as you know, we are playing this constant cat and mouse game with them. We feel triumphant when our skills go unnoticed, and "foiled" when we are barred from further play (I won't go into the unnecessary trials and injuries many of us have faced in the hands of casino management).

However, I must make one small correction to your thoughtful post, and I think most of my colleagues will agree. I have heard so many dealers repeat your words out loud, about "giving away thousands of dollars to people" at your table. The money I walk away with from the casino has never been "given" to me by a dealer or anyone else. I WON IT ALL FAIR AND SQUARE.

Thanks for your opinons, though.

-sof

I completely understand where you are coming from and more often than not I know perfectly well when someone is counting my cards as I deal single deck and count my own deck. I also know perfectly easy ways to foil that count being as I count my own deck. And yes you did win that money yourself fair and square, but I stood there and dealt you your winning hands and smiled and cheered you on while you won and you can bet your last dollar that the second I got off that table I got my ass chewed from here to timbuktu for every little thing that I may or may not have been able to do to stop you from winning so all I'm asking is to show your dealer a little appreciation. And no I'm not preaching to you about "tip the dealer" I'm just saying that "Thank you" goes a whole lot further in this world than "F**K you"

I agree that some dealers could have done more to harm me and didn't. I have to agree with someonefamous however that players with bad attititude may not be good counters like we have here at this board : )

Thank you for contributing to the discussion here.

You may be getting a somewhat distorted view on the attitude of counters toward casino personnel, and to dealers in particular. Undoubtedly, some players hold those views, but I think that it is mis-stake to stereotype counters, just as it is a mistake to stereotype APs, just as it a mistake to stereotype casino people.

Before proceeding any further, can I ask you what you do? It sounded like you are a dealer, but I wondered if you were also a dual-rate. It does seem to me that there is a difference between dealers and supervisors. I will briefly talk about both.

I think it always correct to treat everyone with courtesy and respect. To say �please� and �thank your�. In addition to being the �right thigh to do�, I think it is also better business. In fact, I have seen more rudeness from ploppies than from APs.

I think it is a strategic error to underestimate your opponent. That is why you very seldom see in my posts comments such as �clueless�.

I also dealers are different than bosses. Bosses jobs is to prevent us form making money, which is not the primary job of the dealer. I try to work with the dealer whenever possible, within the limits allowed.

Tipping is a controversial issue among APs. The mainstream view is not to tip. I disagree with that, and have put posts up on Green Chip suggesting moderate tipping.

However, sometimes we get shuffled up on by dealers pre-maturely. Sometimes we get hustled excessively. These conditions discourage us from tipping.

Another thing which discourages tipping is the practice of pooling tips. We may have a very good dealer at our table, but we know that she/he has to share the tips with a jerk at the other pit. If I have a good dealer who can keep their own tokes, I am more inclined to tip.

"I also know perfectly easy ways to foil that count being as I count my own deck."

.. a preferential shuffler? Believe it or not, that's OK by me.

Problem is, there are those in your profession who do take it personally, and having the skills you possess, might/do resort to 'foiling' the play by criminally cheating.

And by the way, dealers are not the only employees on the planet that get their a** chewed on daily.

None the less, thanks for the post; keep doing your job as you should; I for one respect a good days work and the people performing it. It is it's own reward you know. :)

Good luck.

I am one of the players who is frequently critical of casino personnel. However, I do so on these boards, and not in person. I am always pleasant and polite to casino staff in person, and many times have interceded on behalf of dealers who are being abused by rude casino patrons.

� spend a majority of my time off the clock researching blackjack�

This puts you in a distinct minority, as I�m sure you�re aware. In listening to thousands of dealers dispense advice to players, it is obvious to me that the vast majority of dealers either, (1) don�t even know simple basic strategy, or (2) are deliberately lying and misleading the public by giving false advice. I think it is (1).

I do not hold casino personnel in high regard in general, because they have chosen employment in an industry that is morally and ethically bankrupt. I have no particular contempt for entry-level employees, such as dealers, unless they go out of their way to make life miserable for me -- pref shuffling, unsolicited comments to the pit about my play, commiserating with rude ploppies who think I "took the dealer's bust card" or similar nonsense, etc. As entry-level employees, they are no different than car salesmen, telephone solicitors, or entry-level people in many types of businesses that try to get the best of their customers. They usually are just there to get a paycheck and go home, until a better job comes along and they leave.

However, when it becomes a "career," rather than temporary employment until a better job comes along, then I feel they have crossed the line and become human ciphers. The casino industry preys upon the ignorant, stupid, weak and addicted. I won't even get started on dissecting the many things it does wrong, as they have been well documented, over and over.

Suffice to say that casinos are one of the few places in America that are virtually lawless territories, where the usual laws of society do not apply, and what goes on is at the whim of whoever happens to be in charge at a particular moment in time. Fairness, ethics, and the morals we expect in everyday dealings are not present in casinos. One only has to look at the cheating schemes hatched by high levels of management, such as at the Venetian, and the violent crimes committed by casino employees against legal, honest, skilled players, and lied about afterwards, to show that casinos have no respect for fair play or the law.

Cheating devices such as Mindplay also show just how far some casinos will go to try to ensure that no one has a fair chance to win. Fabricating false criminal charges, such as Caesars Palace, El Cortez, and Mandalay Bay have done against legal, law-abiding patrons that they don�t like shows the mindset of the typical casino boss.

Nutmeg21 said:

�dealing with people that are so drunk they can't remember their own name �

Such people should not be playing. To allow them to play violates gaming regulations, at least in Nevada and Mississippi. Again, the moral vacuum you work in is clear. How did they get so drunk? The casino continued to ply them with �free� liquor, despite regulations to the contrary. Penalties by "regulators"? Yeah, right.

�giving away thousands of dollars�

How did Nutmeg21 �give it away� --- did he reach into the rack and steal it? A player winning is not the same as you giving the money away. You know, full well, that you take in far more for your employer than you �give away.�

� I don�t want you to feel I am flaming your boards �

I don�t think anyone here will think that. Your post is welcome and appreciated. Though we are on opposite sides of the fence, civilized dialogue and communication is a good thing. Thank you for your post. I sincerely hope you will continue to post. If more casino employees would try to independently learn things related to their jobs rather than simply listen to the falsehoods frequently fed to them by their bosses, we would all be better off.

Tipping is a controversial issue among APs. The mainstream view is not to tip. I disagree with that, and have put posts up on Green Chip suggesting moderate tipping.

Since some readers here do not have access to Green Chip, I will verify that Math Prof has indeed made such posts, and has made good and valid arguments in favor of tipping. At the other end of the spectrum, I am one with the "do not tip" viewpoint.

However, sometimes we get shuffled up on by dealers pre-maturely. Sometimes we get hustled excessively. These conditions discourage us from tipping.

I hope Nutmeg21 will agree that such dealers do not deserve tips.

Another thing which discourages tipping is the practice of pooling tips. We may have a very good dealer at our table, but we know that she/he has to share the tips with a jerk at the other pit. If I have a good dealer who can keep their own tokes, I am more inclined to tip.

I think forced tip pooling is shameful. Though I tip very, very rarely, when I do, it is almost always in a place where the dealers "go for their own."

Nutmeg21 mentioned dealing single deck, so perhaps he deals in one of the handful of Reno stores that still allow the dealers to keep their own tokes. If so, he may have received a tip from me.

By the way, kudos to Nutmeg21 for not specifically mentioning tipping in his post. Many times, when dealers post here, it is to whine about the lack of tips from AP's. He did not do this, for which he should be respected.

I appreciate the work the dealers do and contrary to many on this board I even tip occasionally (between $3 and $4 per hour on average). That said, there aren't enough dealers or pitbosses that know anything about card counting for me to worry about. Most are quite uninformed about the game and the pit bosses with the power to evaluate players and back them off are usually just as likely to back off an unskilled lucky hunch bettor as a card counter.

....about dealers keeping their own tokes. Otherwise it is very hard to make a case to tip, and this is where I disagree with MathProf.

I'll share this experience from a recent LV trip - 2 dealers, same store, but the way they handled their games were 180 degrees apart.

One female dealer shuffled prematurely on a bet increase. Shortly, it got to the point where any bet increase, at any time, she shuffled. Being a good Dr, I figured, OK here's a chance to exploit the situation by getting the dealer to shuffle away negative counts. Obviously she was counting along - these bets she let stand :(

Moved to a different table, and the dealer was not only professional and pleasant, but tolerant of reasonable bet spread changes. This dealer was quite worthy of not only a "Please" and a "Thank You", but you would think a tip as well, given I had a good run of cards.

Here's the quandry: All dealer tips were shared. How can I tip in good conscience? knowing that I'd be contributing even 1 red cent to the preferential shuffling house stooge? The sad part is that the nice dealer gets penalized because of the preferential-shuffling scumbag. OTOH, imagine if a person so inclined to tip moderately (e.g. MathProf) hadn't played with the house stooge? Then, unknowingly, you end up rewarding the house stooge by your moderate tip to the nice dealer??? That doesn't work for me.

How many houses have an idiot dealer or two working for them? Probably, as in all walks of society, every casino. Therefore, I find it impossible to tip "for service" in any house with shared tips.

The only tipping caveat that I can think of: tipping for penetration in a positive count where the dealer doesn't have a shuffle card inserted. If a tip can be used to "coerce" a dealer into dealing another hand in a juicy count. Note, that if the dealer still shuffles, I will pull back the tip when I re-size my bet off the top.

In thousands of hours of blackjack playing, in many different states, I have never been disrespectful to a dealer. However, dealers have been disrespectful to me hundreds of times. You really need to get out more.

Slim

"cheered you on while you won and you can bet your last dollar that the second I got off that table I got my ass chewed from here to timbuktu for every little thing that I may or may not have been able to do to stop you from winning"

Let me first say that I appreciate the post also.

It's always a little cold water in the face to learn how ignorant I am! I think most dealers act happy when a player wins or is winning. So do all dealers get their butts chewed for something out of their control or is it because you're dealing single deck and have more control over someone winning? Please help me understand what the house expects of dealers. The dealer is happy to throw winners because that means more tokes but the price to be paid takes the joy out of it?

It's important for every advantage gambler to understand the pressure dealers are under. OF COURSE "you can bet your last dollar that the second I got off that table I got my ass chewed from here to timbuktu for every little thing that I may or may not have been able to do to stop you from winning." I was lucky enough to be 36 when I placed my first bet in a casino. In my early twenties I was probably naive enough to think dealers would strive to be "fair" to everyone.

There are even strong incentives for dealers to learn to cheat. There's simply no need for complicity with people higher in authority. There are huge economic and emotional benefits coming to a dealer with a reputation for being "lucky" for the house. And in some jurisdictions, NOBODY will ever ask how a statistical anamoly like that is possible.

I'm not saying most dealers cheat. Honesty still is a cherished ideal for many people. I'm just saying strong disincentives need to be in place, and working smoothly, to overcome the strong natural incentive to cheat. And that just isn't true in every casino in every state.

ETF

I love to see people win, not just because I make tips if they win, but because the joy it gives me to know that I had a big impact in making that person's day and even week better (but dont get me wrong the tips are my bread and butter ;) I also know that this is a risky business, and no matter what the advantage on either side people are always going to lose their money. I know what its like to be on the other side and lose money and it makes me happy and gives me hope to see people actually win at this game. And yes the houses biggest concern is winning money for the casino because they're not making any money if they're not winning. So if I go to a table and dump large amounts of the casino's money then yes I get my ass chewed, big time, for something that (and you are correct) is usually utterly beyond my control. And just to correct a common misconception among card players in general I do not get paid more for winning for the house, I do not get commision for what percentage of cash I managed to pull out of your wallet today, The casino pays me the same grunt wages (usually federal minimum wage $6 an hour)as it pays ever single other dealer I work with and the only "financial incentive" I get other than my $48 a day is the gratuities I recieve from a player who is grateful for the service which I provide.

.. tip-pooling is a bad, bad idea. It generally only supports those less deserving.

I have often wanted to ask a dealer .. when do you get off work; meet me in the lounge, I have a tip for you.

For obvious reasons, I don't.

"I do not hold casino personnel in high regard in general, because they have chosen employment in an industry that is morally and ethically bankrupt."

With all due respect .. you and ET Fan! .. good grief. I respect you both, but when this duplicitious thinking hits the boards it kinda drives me crazy.

(BTW -you are a professional gambler, right? If I'm wrong, forgive me. If I'm right, the career you have chosen is held in about the same high esteem by most others out there as the car salesmen you just punked.)

So what then, as soon as ET Fan's personal quest to rid the world of all the evil gaming establishments is fully realized .. you'll be happy!?

"I have no particular contempt for entry-level employees .."

Wow, thanks. How open minded of you.

"However, when it becomes a 'career,' .. then I feel they have crossed the line and become human ciphers."

You denegrate the very people that allow you to ply the vocation/avocation you have chosen. I imagine most of the 'career' employees that have been associated with your taking thousands of dollars from the casinos you have won from are not 'human ciphers.'

"The casino industry preys upon the ignorant, stupid, weak and addicted."

So do you .. and I .. every time we put our money in play. Were it not for those that lose, the Bellagio would be just another Holiday Inn. No one is going to keep the 'ignorant, stupid, weak, and addicted' away while they set up a little clean and well organized BJ pit simply to allow you and me to come and periodocally skim off a portion of their food and beverage profits.

The 'ignorant, stupid, weak, and addicted' should not be allowed to manage their own IRA either, but they get to.

And one last thing, while I'm rolling. You bag on how they break the law (and they do), and trample on your rights (and they do), while offering this gamble.

Frankly, I'm amazed that civil rights even extend to gambling sometimes. A RIGHT to gamble?! Brother, we've come a long way. I may want to gamble with the two lames down the street who I can beat regularly, but gamble with you? No thanks. I don't want to, thank you, no. And why should I be forced to? Why should they? Because we live in America, I quess -and everybody has 'rights.'

I'm just glad I can still get on the game that I do.

..in the interest of full disclosure .. I've never been barred, never beaten up, never been back roomed or physically molested in a casino. I believe basic human rights must exist. But to force me to offer a gamble to you that I know you can beat me at -- like I said, I'm surprised I can still get any kinda game on at all.

For voicing my thoughts exactly!

You mentioned abuot being barred. Were you ever able to gamble in the same casinos that told you to leave on a different day?