H17 game vs S17 game in real life advantage play. Does it really matter?

Hi all... I am aware that all else being equal, the house edge is about 0.20% higher for a shoe game that is H17, vs. a similar S17 game. But S17 games get harder to find every time I visit Vegas. Late last year for example I was dismayed to find the main pit at Caesars had been converted (with no fanfare I am sure) to H17 rules. And I have religiously avoided these tables. But ... intuitively it would seem that during high counts when the big money is down, an H17 rule would not provide an advantage to the casino, due to shortage of low cards to fill in the dealer's hand. A 10 or A would not really improve a dealers soft 17 , and a medium card would force another card to be drawn and increase the chance of dealer busting in high count situations. Does this make sense? Is an H17 rule really a disadvantage for the player in real life advantage play?

FrankD

All else being equal you will win more money at S17 games. Maybe not .20% more but that would depend on bet spread etc. To find the difference in edge at various true counts you would need a simulator. Also the opposite should hold true for negative counts.

If the dealer has an ace up and no blackjack, you will stand on any hand that is hard 17 or greater. Now if the dealer shows a soft 17, do you really want him to hit the hand, especially if you've already got him beat?

Thanks for the responses. Re the last example situation that was provided, I can give one on the other side of the equation. I am often beat with a 12-16 against a dealer 6, when the dealer pulls an Ace. H17 forces the dealer to hit, providing a chance of winning a hand that is lost with S17 rules.

I would have thought someone would have done some actual analysis on this, since if the difference in EV between S17 and H17 evaporates at high counts, that to me opens up a new world of many more "playable" tables.

FrankD

I discuss this in BJA3. Some rules "explode," like surrender, and are worth considerably more to the bet-spreading counter than to the BS player. Although H17 is NOT such a rule, neither does its negative effect shrink very much, in view of card counting. A counter is penalized about 0.18-0.19%, if the BS player is penalized 0.20% for H17.

Don

You think Caesars went bad, you should see Detroit. Used to be a decent 6D game, S17 and good pen. Now they are 8D and H17 and Motorcity is the worst with at best 60% pen along with always full tables of plopplies, so many so its almost inpossible to wong in.

... I'll stick with my fairly local charity casino for my weekly outings, with it's $100 limit. Played about 1500 hours there over the last 5 years, and they don't seem to care (spread from $15 to 2 X $200 or even 3 x $100). It's an 8 deck S17 game, but some dealers go deep to 1.5 decks or less remaining, so it's quite playable. I'm on a positive run there now with 12 consecutive winning sessions. I'm giving the place a bit of a rest now for a week or two to try to avoid becoming an unwelcome guest

FrankD

Have you been to Niagara Falls Ont. lately? Last time I was there, 18 months ago, it was just about unplayable in both casinos, day or night.
Thanks for any update. fc

Funny, was just talking with my spouse tonight about planning a trip to Niagara Falls. I do go there several times a year, but gave up on Fallsview and Casino Niagara for BJ years ago. I spend my time at Seneca Niagara, just across the bridge on the US side. I may check out the casinos on my side of the border just for fun next time to see if things have improved. All I remember from my few visits long ago is CSMs all over the place, causing me to head for the exists in a hurry. About Seneca Niagara, the bad part (in my opinion) about the conditions there is the cigarette and cigar smoke ... (all Casinos in Canada are now totally smoke free).

FrankD

No problem. Also last I was in Windsor it was no better then Detroit as well so don't waste your time there either.