Grosjean on TV

I just verified it in the article. He had only been accused, and was listed in Griffin.

Thanks, it's been quite a while since I read it, and I wanted to answer Rob's question, but I was away from my library.

James Grosjean and Michael Russo were both jailed in 2000 after winning 18k playing poker at Caesars Palace. Russo spent 12 hours in jail while Grosjean spent 4 days in jail and both were placed in the Griffin book which resulted in Grosjean later being detained, searched and handcuffed at the Imperial Palace while just walking through the casino.

Both Grosjean and Russo are represented by Bob Nersesian and have sued Caesars Palace and PPE as well as Griffin, those suits are still pending.

Following is a link to the article:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2003/nov/13/111310225.html)

Is he in jail? Not to my knowledge, JG is not in jail at present. As far as anything else goes that matter is still being litigated. And it was 3 card poker at Ceasars. A friend of JG's, RC was detained unlawfully I believe at the El Cortez? LVBEAR can probably remember better than I.
JWP

I tried to warn you people what happens to cheaters, but instead chose to flame me for playing honestly.

They were never accused of cheating. No charges were ever filed. The casino and the compliant, subservient Gaming agents overreacted, and will pay dearly for their atrocious conduct.

Grosjean and Russo should get a nice jury award for the false arrests and other misconduct by the crooks at the casino and the dishonest Gaming agents. The award hopefully will be many times the EV of the time invested, if that time had been spent at the tables.

They were not cheating at ceasars. They were getting the bottom card because the dealer was not using proper procedure. This information was available to all players at the table. They were the only ones to recognise it and take advantage of it. It was not cheating and as for you "getting down" I think you are misinformed or mistaken. For you to use the term "cheaters" is both cheap and uncalled for. You obviously do not know the facts of the case.
JWP

First off, LVBear and JWP are absolutely correct. However, this will not convince "Getting Down." He maintains that HC play is cheating, even though that it is not illegal. He has stirred up this discussion several times before. I recommend that you guys don't waste your time with another "discussion" with him.

Regards,
MF

Would it be cheating if you were sitting at a table and a sloppy dealer partially flipped over her card exposing it for all to see? Once the card is exposed are you supposed to ignore what you saw and not use this information? Holecarders are doing nothing more than taking advantage of poorly trained, sloppy dealers. They are not doing anything to force a dealer to expose the cards but merely being observant and seeking out poor dealers who don't follow the casino procedure.

Peeking at the hole card is CHEATING because this is information that is not supposed to be available to the player. Just because the dealer may be sloppy is merely a way to justify to yourself a lack of morality while playing. And the fact that these cheaters seek out "weak antelope" (as opposed to an innocent player who happens to see a flashed card) proves premeditation.

If I seem so hostile to hole carders/cheaters it is because I have posted here in the past that I prefer to play a straight counting game (being probably the best straight-up counters in the world) and not resort to such cheating methods and got called a moron and worse by the cheaters. If you show no respect toward my preferences then I will show no respect for yours.

If you show no respect toward my preferences then I will show no respect for yours.

It was quite enlightening. Several posters tried to reason with you, and all of them were extremely polite, and even respected your opinion. You were the only one firing off insults.

One poster finally insulted you at the end of it all in exasperation.

"Peeking at the hole card is CHEATING because this is information that is not supposed to be available to the player. Just because the dealer may be sloppy is merely a way to justify to yourself a lack of morality while playing."

You forgot the words "In my opinion" in the front of your post. Furthermore, the Nevada Gaming Commission, the courts, and just about everyone else in the world who matters, disagrees with your opinion.

"And the fact that these cheaters seek out "weak antelope" (as opposed to an innocent player who happens to see a flashed card) proves premeditation."

So it proves premeditation. Who cares. Proving premeditation means nothing. Doesn't the fact that you have read books on card counting and practiced card counting prove premeditation on your part?

"If I seem so hostile to hole carders/cheaters it is because I have posted here in the past that I prefer to play a straight counting game (being probably the best straight-up counters in the world) and not resort to such cheating methods and got called a moron and worse by the cheaters."

You call someone doing something legal a "cheater" and you wonder why they are offended and respond back in an offensive manner? I think even a moron could figure that one out.

And (LOL), what makes you think that you are one of the best straight up counters in the world? Do you add the +1 to the running count faster than everyone else when that duece hits the table?

" If you show no respect toward my preferences then I will show no respect for yours."

You got it backwards. You have already showed disrespect (you called someone a cheater), so now you shouldn't be surprised when those people show you disrespect. Why would anyone show you respect when you have shown nothing but disrespect?

they get lots of money from the casinos and police who arrested them as a settlement from a lawsuit.

That should tell you all you need to know about whether hole carding is cheating.

Hey BP, Ray Cagno (a hole-cardinger) probably got paid $250,000 from El Cortez as a result of his triumphant lawsuit. If more casinos think hole-carding is illegal, then more false arrests, then more casinos will pay up just like El Cortez. Let's all be like "Ray" and make some money from the ignorant people/casinos.

Here's a link to the proof:

www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Dec-25-Thu-2003/business/22871776.html

�Judge tosses gambler's conviction
By ROD SMITH
GAMING WIRE

A judge threw out a conviction against an advantage gambler and professional personal trainer who was convicted earlier this year of disorderly conduct for allegedly resisting arrest while being detailed, handcuffed and roughed up at the El Cortez.
District Judge Joseph Bonaventure on Wednesday tossed the case against Ray Cagno after finding his arrest was illegal and unauthorized under Nevada law.

He found the El Cortez, in essence, had cooked up charges against Cagno to justify its policy of treating advantage gamblers harshly, and that there had never been probable cause that any crime had been committed despite his arrest by Las Vegas police.
"The idea of someone in custody being arrested for complaining about this is without merit and the judge's rule was proper," said Allen Lichtenstein, general counsel for the Nevada chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

"It's good to see the courts recognize that even if people are advantage gamblers, they still have constitutional rights," he said.
An advantage gambler is someone who increases his or her chances of winning by taking advantage of a dealer's or casino's mistakes or by means such as card counting.

The Nevada Supreme Court has ruled there is nothing illegal about advantage gambling, which can include such techniques as card counting, shuffle tracking and playing slot machines that are paying out more than their fair share. Nevada's highest court, as well as courts in other gambling states, have ruled advantage gambling is legal since players don't manipulate any cards or machines. Rather, they do nothing more than use normal intelligence much as a bridge player would use watching other players.

Bob Nersesian, a Las Vegas attorney who represents Cagno and has handled about 30 advantage gambling cases, said he and his client "feel vindicated, to a degree."

"I'm elated the judge saw the city's failure. I'm heartened and disheartened at the same time that you have to go through the judicial process to have your rights recognized under the law when they should be clear as day," he said.

Cagno also filed a lawsuit for unspecified damages against the El Cortez, which settled, and three police officers, whose cases are pending in federal court.

Bonaventure ruled that the civil liberties issues involved in the federal case were moot in District Court because of the dismissal of what he ruled was an illegal arrest.

Nersesian said Bonaventure's ruling that Cagno's arrest by Las Vegas police had been illegal cut the legs out of the defense offered by the police in the civil action.

District Court Judge Michael Cherry on Dec. 19 handed down a similar ruling that found the Flamingo Laughlin liable for false imprisonment in the arrest of Tony Vincent, another advantage gambler. A host of other cases are said to be pending, although they are impossible to trace because there is no record advantage gambling is the root cause of a case until the trials proceed.

Many Las Vegas lawyers say there is an emerging pattern of intimidation and excessive force being used by casino security, state gaming and Las Vegas police officers, who often work in concert to trample constitutional rights, civil liberties and gaming regulations to deter advantage gamblers from playing at local properties.
Cagno had been convicted of disorderly conduct because of an advantage gambling incident at the El Cortez and appealed that conviction.

Cagno's disorderly conduct arrest stemmed from his yelling out to casino patrons to call police to help him as he was being led away in handcuffs by hotel security guards.

Video footage Nersesian obtained from the El Cortez shows Cagno hole carding -- meaning he was able to see the blackjack dealer's hole card because of the dealer's mistakes-- in October 2002. He is approached by two security officers who ask him to stop playing. The tapes show Cagno getting up and walking toward an exit.
As he approaches the door, however, he is blocked by two more guards and is forced to the floor, handcuffed and taken to a security holding cell.

Once in the security office, the tapes show Cagno demanding that police be called. When police officers did arrive at the casino, however, Cagno's bad luck seemingly turned even worse.
Instead of getting help from the police, the officers charged Cagno with disorderly conduct for "yelling, screaming and struggling with a security officer," based on a citizen's complaint, according to motions filed in the case.

However, the complaining witness testified in court that she was told to file the complaint, which actually was written by a police officer, and that she had not even read the complaining document.
"Here he's trying to file a report because of his battery and false imprisonment by El Cortez, and he ends up in jail with the police claiming he's the perpetrator," Nersesian said.

Police officials could not be reached for comment Wednesday, and Alan Abrams, general manager of the El Cortez, declined comment.
"There's a pattern and practice where the police, both gaming agents and Metro, ignore any kind of complaint a patron makes against a casino about wrongs they commit distinguished from disputes they jump on, but when it comes to personal liberty issues and imprisonments by casinos, it is fundamentally impossible to have public agencies prosecute casinos," Nersesian said.

What makes the Cagno case stand out, Nersesian said, is that he "went the extra mile to make sure his rights were protected and when he did that, they ground him out like a dirty little cigarette butt."