Excellent Post! (nt)
Talk about nonoptimal, red chip tipping!
1) You cannot tip more than a few dollars per session.
2) It eats bigtime into your EV
3) It's peanuts to the dealers who don't even appreciate it, and often say disgustedly "thanks" for a $1 tip.
BOTTOM LINE: (IMO). It's a huge ploppy move showing a lack of fiscal common sense.
BASIC STRATEGY: Set aside a tipping amount trip bankroll and get the best bang for your buck by using it to help
1) Denny's waitresses
2) Room attendants
3) Shoeshine workers
4) Anyone else who works 2x as hard as dealers, for 1/2 the pay.
Required reading: Read "Nickled and Dimed in America". And you will relate better to those folks making $7/hour trying to survive.
you should know that
it matters not if you are a red, green or black chipper
if you go into a place with the attitude that all dealers are trash they will pick up on that and you will be creating big problems for
yourself
and then when you are not treated well you will wonder why
from what i have seen most players ask for the trouble they receive
Thank you for sharing your perspective on this matter with us. It does give us something to think about.
There was one comment that I had a question about:
3) It's peanuts to the dealers who don't even appreciate it, and often say disgustedly "thanks" for a $1 tip.
BOTTOM LINE: (IMO). It's a huge ploppy move showing a lack of fiscal common sense.
First, I agree that someone betting black may get the same reaction if they tip a dealer a dollar. I don't remember getting that reaction when I played Red. The dealers that I played with seemed to appreciate proportional tips. They seemed to understand that on a percentage basis, the 0.50 or $1 tip that I gave them was a big tip, for that level.
Most of my red-chip play came from non Vegas casinos. I have noted in the past that there is a difference between the casino cultures in Vegas and other parts of the country. Perhaps this is one example?
I do think that red-chippers who are traveling to Vegas with the intent of masking money from BJ show a "lack of fiscal commons sense" as I tried to suggest in my post above.
There are differences of opinion on this tip question, and I think it is good that we discuss them. But I must say, I find the rhetoric of the anti-tipping people to be excessive and counter-productive. Right now, one of the stereo-types going through casino circles is that counters are "greedy"; poor tipping habits are one practice that they point to. Posts which refer to tipping as a "huge ploppy move" reinforce that image.
Imagine if a major corporation told their executives not to tip waitresses on business meals charged to the company, at least when out of town and not eating at a regular restaurant. "Once the meal is over, you cannot improve the service of that meal since it is done. And you won't be going back for more meals. Therefore do not tip. We will not reimburse tips on out of town expenses." They would take a HUGE amount of flack for being so tight. It would devastate their corporate image.
I think we should be concerned about our image as corporations are about theirs.
Regarding dealers not appreciating a $1 tip, I also think that it varies by location. I was in Vegas a while back, before I started to count cards, and was flat betting $3 a hand. I placed a 50 cent tip out for the dealer and he gave me a dirty look and said "is that supposed to be a tip?".
On the other hand, in my local area, dealers are very appreciative of a proportional tip. I have never had a dealer here make a negative comment about getting a $1 tip when I am spreading $10-$60 or so.
I also agree about the point on major corporations looking tight when they do not re-imburse tips. I once worked for a large multi-national corporation that changed their expense reimbursement policy so that tips (other than for meals) were not reimbursed. I did think that was pretty tight and continued to tip maids, valets, taxi drivers, etc out of my pocket.
My final thought on tipping is that it is important to distinguish between the effects of tipping on EV (cover, pen, etc), and the moral reasons for tipping. I think that tipping is almost always a poor EV move at my bet level, but I still tip @ $2/hour ($1 to dealers, $1 to CW's) because I feel better about myself for doing so.... The same reason that I donate to worthy charities.
If the low-roller joint was the El C.
I too have noticed in Vegas, a buck is sometimes not appreciated. I guess in some places, the locals have become tainted with the 'more money than brains' crowd throwing around huge outlandish tips.
In the small venues outside of Vegas, I have found tips of any type are appreciated.
Most casinos will not pay a BJ bonus on a 50 cent tip. If you bet 50 cents for the dealer, you are basically playing their tips on a "BJ pays even money" game. This is negative EV. It would be better to just them the tip.
If I have a dollar tip out and have surrendered, I usually put another 50 cents above the 50 cents that remains, so that the toke becomes a full dollar.
Red chippers are kidding themselves if they are playing trying to make money. They are just having fun, similar to playing in a chess tourney trying to win a $500 first prize for the weekend.
The bottom line is, they have a small amount of money to give away in tips for the weekend. I agree that if you have an outstanding dealer, pass it his way. However, I very rarely see outstanding dealers.
I do see outstanding room attendants, waitresses, convenience store employees, ticket writers in sports books, etc. that are busting their you know what's trying to survive.
GIVE THEM $2 extra, and they are unbelievable happy. They work harder. They are much more appreciative. They keep all their tips! From a "greater value to society" perspective, you are adding so much +EV from those tips that it is a slam-dunk to use your tipping budget for those hard working folks, rather than "piss it" away on fairly well paid, often unappreciative dealers who get 1/111 of your dollar.
As for the counter's image. I agree it's a bad one. Tipping isn't going to ever help much, however, since counters will win big sometimes and know they can only tip $10 when winning $1000. Believe me, dealers are never happy with 1% of a score like that! Better to not tip anything, IMO, than try to tip $5. Also, remember that room attendant is cleaning 17 rooms, then going home to take care of her kids, and clean her small house. SHE NEEDS IT!!
unless the dealer was a jerk
but that is a nice gesture on the players part
you seem like a fine young man, as i do believe that is also your reputation, from what i have been told about you by some legendary players
i think it best if you are to be a regular at a place to build up a good relationship with the crew
it can do wonders
and the georges you speak of have a screw loose
On your question, was it scarcastic? Maybe depending on the dealer, I get the feeling it was genuine this time, sometimes not, Myself dealing in a relativly small casino where "georges" dont come along all to often, most of us would appreciate a 10 dollar tip. Notice I say most.. I realize that tipping kills ev I try not to overtip when I play but I play for sport not long term. I've been thinking and if I was trying to consistantly make a living off of just BJ then I would not tip much. BUT, since I deal, when I play I'm w/other dealers (obviously) and If I stiff them, they will stiff me since I dont play big numbers it is benificial to me to tip them fairly well which may only be 10 bux for a even night or 30-40 for a 200 buck night. I know they will remember me when and if they play w/me.
Its hard to say it but I understand why CC's dont tip much.
Also why the hell do you guys say we dont need the money? I have a family, mortgage payment, and would like to fund me and my wifes college education, not to mention my 2 kids expenses. How can you think I dont need the money?
Peace,
GG
Most of the dealers are very bad minded persons and think the same about card counters like the pit bosses.
A lot of dealers I know Dont respect CC's cause they dont make any money off them, would you want to work for min. wage when you could be making much more? having to sit and watch some guy/gal win and act like its nothing while you go home empty handed? I know I will get mine either way so I dont worry about the CC's I just try to use counting to my advantage and get the "georges" to play big when the count is good w/o telling them the count is good, if you understand.
Green Giant.
