Computers

I have been playing the Utson APC for 3 years now at casinos all over the country (I am sometimes timid about my accuracy). I win consistently, but the money I make as a design engineer outweighs the rewards from bj. I intend to change this.

I would like to build a "George". I would like to know what the legal penalties are if caught with one (highly unlikely)? My design will consist of only 5 push buttons which will represent the card values of the Uston APC. It will simply let me know the true count, I will be responsible for memorizing the flash cards. I will use a basic stamp chip and a servo motor (or something else) to help me indentify the count. If anyone has any suggestions for the design please let me know? I saw a website which was selling similar devices for +$3500. This is crazy, the parts I just metioned would come to less than $125. I am fervently excited about this project, and would like to know about others experiences with such devices?

What that good may be is a very good question.

Penalties are high for getting caught in the casinos using any such devices. According to what I've read, it has been already tried before by having a specially wired computer on one's undergarments with fingertip controls.

Here's a real story:

Many years ago there was a man who believed he could make gold from brass (an alloy of copper and zinc) by changing it's composition. Nobody knowledgeable about the subject could change his obsession. He tirelessly went on experimenting and recording his results. And, of course, his efforts were in vain to convert brass into gold.

However, in the process he really struck "gold" as he became very rich in his search. Presently his daughter continues the business he created and became famous and known for all over the world. In his efforts to strike gold, he found the best proportion for making the best sounding/vibration (musical) brass cymbals- now used by musicians worldwide. The man's name was Zildjian. Zildjian cymbals are top of the line in the market and the formula is not disclosed.

In your case, how is such a device (George) can further improve your results? You said already you're able to perform profitably. Would it be worth taking such a risky challenge and getting caught? How much more you think would be your performance improvement and why?

1. In today's games (multi-deck, poor penetration, pref-shuffling, back-offs for large spreads) it is highly debatable whether or not a "George" type of computer would give a player a significant increase in edge over tradtitional counting.

2. Regardless, it is a felony to use such a device in Nevada, and illegal nearly everywhere. How much of an edge is worth going to prison for?

The most important information a computer can provide is what the tc is and calculate the best optimal play and bet.
You are designing your computer to only keep a running count and nothing more. You should already know your count like the back of your hand, therefore I so no benefit in designing such a weak computer unless for academic reasons.

I find the persistence of this issue mystifying. I must have said this over thirty times here, but the gain from a perfect linear count system that a George type computer would use is about .1% over the application of any of the simple level-1 systems. I also explained this in Get the Edge At Blackjack, which 7000+ people have read, but the message does not seem to have got across. You are wasting your time with a computer designed to count.

that when Keith Taft built the original "David" computers they were for playing single deck with deep penetration as was found easilly back in the 70s.

As has been stated, your gain is nothing and the risk is huge. You also mention that you think being caught is highly unlikely. In Atlantic City they saw a ton of computer play before the laws changed and I think your chance of being picked off would be quite high. Almost all the states in the US have copied Nevada's laws and in Nevada it is a felony just to posess such a device with intent to use it in a casino.

There device is easier to build that i'd thought (extension capabilities should not be a problem). If anyone is interested I bought the parts from the BOE (board of education) to interface with the basic stamp. It makes interfacing with the switches(i still have to purchase push-buttons) and servo-motors simple.

I've read all your responses, but i've been know to be rather stubborn. I highly doubt casinos can detect an this type of electronic device. They are also restricted by the 4th amendment. This is not a cheating device, mearly a microcontroller, with such esotaric design, no one could properly operate but the owner. They would not see any source code, only the executable is stored on the chip.

I recall a quote from Uston "My lawyer has advised me that this is false arrest. If you force me, I will hold the casino, as well as you personally legally liable." This aint the 70's, most people plan to lose money at casinos, slot machines have taken over. I believe some of the old rules don't apply. I'm just another person with electronic components duck-taped to my body. I'll let you'll know my results, thanks for the advice, the felony one was most distressing, but that means a conviction, and i'm sure these devices (should) scare casino personal.

You're crazy to even take a chance. Even in jurisdictions where they haven't clarified the law on devices, it's not worth it. I've had two different sets of friends spent unwanted time in jail cells. Parker is right--the game is beatable using just your brain so don't throw away your future.

Have you studied the device law? It is so ambiguously worded that almost anything could be construed to be an illegal "device."

And if you are considering using it in Nevada, remember where the money comes from that pays the judges salaries. Nevada courts have historically been somewhat biased in favor of casinos, to put it mildly.

And even if you should prevail, if you are caught you will be arrested, jailed, required to post bail, have to hire an attorney, etc.

Is it really worth it?

There are several knowledgeable attorneys that post to this board. Hopefully they will jump in and try and talk you out of this foolish venture.

Celcius, I don't know your personal or professional situation but you should ask yourself first how an arrest, and possible conviction, for a felony might affect them. Look at this as a purely business decision. Ask yourself, "Do the risks outweigh the possible gains from this endeavor?".

You might want to move to a better paying job someday and something like this on your record may cause a prospective employer not to hire you. It could also affect your ability to operate certain businesses (liquor comes to mind) which require the applicant to have a license and to be of "good character". Also is the profit you'll make from the extra advantage you'd gain going to cover all the costs involved, legal and otherwise, of an arrest/conviction? Hit 'em hard, The Side

Firstly I think GBV also once said that a 1% increase on the existing cerabal advantage compounded would quickly turn into a very noticable difference.Also I think maybe you should not dismiss the idea totally because there are many countries where legislation is weak if not non-existant.lastly, with the availability of micro components the computer could be situated a great distance from the property and virtually indetectable. Just food for thought.Q.

Please keep us posted. For what's it worth, if you can't keep the running count of Uston's APC I doubt whatever miniscule edge (if any) having a computer do it for you will help your winnings. Most knowledgeable people would agree keeping the running count is the easiest part of winning blackjack. You're using the Uston APC (as I do), and I have trouble believing you can adjust the runnning count for ace richness or poorness, calculate the true count (dividing by the number of half decks remaining to be played) and make playing decisions based on the true count using about 150 indicies but can't keep a running count! Give me a break! And you want to risk a felony conviction to keep running counts? Frankly, I think you need more help than this board can offer.

First of all, you said:

I highly doubt casinos can detect an this type of electronic device.

I would venture to say that most, if not all, of the casinos in LV have and use EMF detectors.

Next, you said:

They are also restricted by the 4th amendment.

In an ideal world, this would be true. However, this is not an ideal world. What I can consider unconstitutional searches and seizures occur on a daily basis in this country. In addition, as Parker points out, the casinos have a lot of influence in the Nevada court system. You will almost definitely be convicted if you are caught with a computer strapped to your person in a casino.

Finally, as others have said, there is no significant gain for using a computer in today's shoe games. If you insist on pursuing this idiotic concept, design a computer for roulette. The EV is much higher.

I'll try one more time: Don't do it!

Regards,
MF

It appears you are really going to follow thru with this fascinating adventure. I must say, the thought has crossed my mind of designing a practical and efficient little-bitty (calculator?) that is wired to a digital watch.

If you must "test" or use this toy, I would stay clear of Nevada.
Please share your adventure and experience with us here, it will be very interesting to say the least-- for you will be the one out of millions who have enough balls to try this. Not many have.

Good Luck.

You're getting enough grief about the legality and potential consequences from the others here so I'll just say that I agree with them. Now... It does seem like a cool stamp project. I've worked with the basic stamp as well as a PIC microcontroller with a basic compiler. I think your first problem is going to be that the stamp does not perform floating point math. You can do the basics with a lookup table but if you want to really optimize this sucker with exact betting feedback it seems that you would need floating point. If so, check the link below. They have floating point coprocessors for the stamp. If ya got a few extra bucks you may wish to consider moving to a PIC with a basic compiler. Much faster and you might even be able to get it to fit in a watch.

Celcius

I have several. Never used them in live action. It was part of a college project. Very easy to build using the stamp, 4 AAA bateries and a pager buzzer (about the size of a pencil). Everything in 1 boot. These were programmed for KO. Has DD,4D,6D programmed on 1 Stamp. Forget the 5 switches. It can be done using 1 switch and varying the switch intensity. Everything from turning the unit on ... to entering the count.... to requesting a buzz .... to shutting down the unit. All with 1 switch. Pretty impressive gizmo, unfortunately we were 20 years too late.

Everything they say about being illegal is true. Even possesing the units are illegal in some states. Forget casino EMI detection. Such low power consumption produces virually no detectable EMI under controlled conditions. I imagine the casino floor is flooded with all sorts of spurious emissions and white noise from lighting and slots.

I also have a wheel timer. Again, 20 years too late. The low profile wheels and smaller frets make roulette predicting practically impossible.

RB

You may know your computers and be stupid enough to try one in a casino, but you sure as hell don't know squat about the 4th Amendment. The 4th Amendment, provides in its entirety:

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Now as any first year law student will tell you, this is a restriction on police powers, i.e. governmental actions. It is not a restriction on private casinos, their private security or other non-governmental persons who can rip that computer off your person and hand it over to the police for prosecution.

And if you're thinking you could sue them for false arrest, think again. All bets are off whenever a private person apprehends another during the commision of a felony. You're toast.

In fact, the only defense I can think of that would apply to your proposed plan is Not Guilty By Reason of Stupidity.

Buick

When one's endeavor in life is to escape responsibility and work ethics and think of short cuts in making money withour hard work- one lands into fantasyland!