Winnings with the Dealer's helps

>You asked for an explanation of the difference in hole carding, both with and without the dealers knowledge. Again, the first is illegal, and you go to jail. The second, is not, and your EV jumps dramatically.

But, even the second could subject one to criminal charges and legal hassles UNTIL it is definitively determined that you were not in cahoots with the dealer or were deliberately cheating. Just because you're right doesn't mean that you can't get harassed. The EV may be much higher but legal fees and hospital bills (not to mention lost time from sitting in a dungeon waiting to be released) can eat into that. Casino security can be mean vindictive a-holes and your "civil rights" don't mean jack squat to them.

>I might add that if your hole carding, it is no lock-cinch you win all the hands. It's still gambling; if you don't have the proper BR, skill, and discipline -it's still a loseing proposition.

True but the casino still would rather you not gamble that way. ;)

>I might also add that your forays into card counting are as susceptible to mis-treatment by the casino as your forays into hole carding. If they decide to make an example of you, they will.

True, as I have been hassled for merely card counting. But as a card counter my "mistreatment" will likely result in merely being asked to leave. And making an example of a card counter is legally much harder than making one out of someone who peeks.

My friend was accused of card marking in Biloxi by a casino, when he was merely card counting. But because there was no proof he was able to report the incident to the gaming commission and have his name cleared, while a peeker would be viewed with more suspicion.

>I might also add again that while you seem to hold card counting in such high esteem (when compared to hole carding), there are legions of people out there who think card counters -like yourself - are worthless cheating scum.

I don't think of peekers as "scum" as I stated in another post that I hold no opinion as to the legality or morality of such actions. I merely state my preference to counting rather than "exotic" methods.

And someone who would call a counter a cheater is wrong, because it is not against the RULES OF THE GAME to keep track of dealt cards, while peeking IS against the game's rules.

since you have Zman's book, read it first, and then let's talk. He points out how difficult it is to tell when you are being cheated, especially in shoe games. I have caught a few dealers cheating over the years, but they were always working with an accomplice, not working for the casino. Zman's book covers instances of the casinos actually doing the cheating, rather than individual dealers; a whole different scenario. Unless you are very accomplished, it is unlikely that you will be able to know when you are being cheated. It is important to play in reputable casinos, where regulations are strict, as in most U.S. casinos. One comfort can be gained from the fact that, if you are winning, you are not being cheated. It is virtually impossible to win against a cheating situation. The main exception to this is short shoes, which on occasion will still yield wins. PV

.. as it is a slooow day for me. :)

You say you don't think of peekers as "scum", that you hold no opinion as to the legality or morality of such actions, and that you are merely stateing your preference to counting rather than "exotic" methods.

Earlier today you said this: "But I guess my position won't be popular among those who need to cheat in order to win rather than use honest card counting methods."

Your opinion of "peekers" is coming through loud and clear whether you realize it or not.

The next statement you made is just plain wrong.

"And someone who would call a counter a cheater is wrong, because it is not against the RULES OF THE GAME to keep track of dealt cards, while peeking IS against the game's rules."

What rule book are you reading!? It is not illegal to hole card. Period.

You may think it "wrong" to hole card; you may look down on those who need to "cheat to win" (hole carders); you may prefer to use "honest card counting methods." But those are just opinions -the things you said earlier you didn't have concerning hole carding.

>Earlier today you said this: "But I guess my position won't be popular among those who need to cheat in order to win rather than use honest card counting methods."

>Your opinion of "peekers" is coming through loud and clear whether you realize it or not.

By "honest card counting methods" I meant card counting without using other methods to increase EV. The word "honest" was not meant to be used to imply that peekers are dishonest but that they are breaking the rules of the game. Maybe it was a wrong choice of words. Maybe "pure" would've been better but I don't have all day to consult a thesaurus.

>What rule book are you reading!? It is not illegal to hole card. Period.

What book are YOU reading??? The rules of the game state that the player is not supposed to know the dealer's hole card. Otherwise the dealer would just deal it face up.

>You may think it "wrong" to hole card; you may look down on those who need to "cheat to win" (hole carders); you may prefer to use "honest card counting methods." But those are just opinions -the things you said earlier you didn't have concerning hole carding.

I never stated that it was "wrong" to hole card but that I prefer not to do it. And I don't "look down" on those who need to peek to win but again stated that I don't do so myself. And yes I do use "honest hole carding methods", honest in that context meaning PURE (as in pure card counting as opposed to peeking or other high-risk methods). Yes these are my opinions, and I'd like to know why the opinion of someone who prefers to strictly count is treated with such hostility on this board, which is for CARD COUNTERS. And why the need to twist my words around or the failure to read all of my posts to get a better idea of what it is that I'm trying to convey. Maybe a bit of defensiveness or a subconscious realization that I may be right?

Maybe a bit of defensiveness or a subconscious realization that I may be right?

I'm sure Sun Runner can, and will, answer for himself, but this type of discussion is not productive.

You're the one who earlier said, If the player is on his own then he's the only one who is cheating and the dealer is not guilty of such an act. Later, you backed down and admitted that it is NOT cheating. Now, because of your change of mind, NO ONE thinks it's cheating. You were the only one who did. Casinos don't like it for the same reason that they don't like any advantage play. It gets the money. For the same reason that they hate winning players. The players get the money. The casinos can't stand that!

This thread is getting too personal and losing track of the issues. As a hole carder as well as a conventional counter, I will tell you that hole carding absolutely, positively, significantly increases my EV. I have nothing to be ashamed of or "defensive" about; it's just another skill in my bag of perfectly legal, honest tricks to get money away from the bad guys (casinos).

Once you recognize that the ability to effectively hole card is just another type of legal advantage play, you'll you be able to drop the personal barbs. Just respect it as another skill, that's all it is.

You may have the last word, if you'd like.

that hole carding is not cheating. All players are free to use whatever information they are able to get to decide how to play their hands. It is the responsibility of the casino to protect their hands. If the employee of the casino is sloppily trained and exposes their hole card the player is allowed to use that information. This was decided by the courts years ago.

The casino has to prove that you and the dealer are connected somehow. If you're playing in a poker room there is a sign that says "players are responsible for protecting their own hand". This means that if you're sloppy enough to make your hand visible to the other players (even just the player next to you) it is your own fault and they are allowed to use that information. That is not cheating.

Likewise with casinos...they are responsible for protecting their own hands. OF course many casinos would like to say that card counting is cheating also. Andy Anderson for one has said that it isn't fair that a card counter has a better chance of winning a hand of blackjack than "Joe from Kokomo".

More than 20 years ago, on the strip, I sat down at a table and quickly realized that I had hole card info. Based on his play, the guy next to me had it also. I won a bit of money quickly but not only left the table but left the casino quickly. The guy next to me was playing his information so plainly that if I knew what he was doing, I am sure the pit and the eye must have been able to figure it out. In those days I was just another ploppy but not a complete moron.
Was he working with the dealer? Could not tell for sure, but I sure as hell thought so, and did not want to be stuck with those two if security stepped in.
Sorry but hitting hard 18 because you know the dealer has 20 looked like trouble to me. I did not know the law just my gut said cash your chips and go.

Subject of the last message should have been

Could have been stuck inbetween

>Later, you backed down and admitted that it is NOT cheating.

I did NO SUCH THING. The rules of blackjack state that the player is not supposed to know the dealer's hole card. WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S DEALT FACE DOWN??? Duhhh...

>This thread is getting too personal and losing track of the issues.

I am not the one who made it a personal issue. I merely stated my opinion that I prefer card counting without "gaming impurities" that could get me thrown in jail or assaulted by security. But the peekers took that as some sort of personal insult and jumped all over me for it.

>Once you recognize that the ability to effectively hole card is just another type of legal advantage play, you'll you be able to drop the personal barbs. Just respect it as another skill, that's all it is.

I do respect it as a skill. I MERELY SAID THAT I PREFER NOT TO PLAY THAT WAY AND THAT IS MY RIGHT JUST AS IT IS YOUR RIGHT TO DO SO!!!!! Don't you people know how to read or are you being deliberately dishonest here? And the personal barbs have come from your side not mine. I must say that I've seen some of the most dishonest people around in reading this forum, twisting my words around 180 degrees and making wild baseless accusations. And then you wonder why I get pissed off at you.

Jesus Koresh how many times do I have to say this... I NEVER SAID THAT PEEKING WAS ILLEGAL OR IMMORAL!! I merely stated that it is against the rules of the game to know the dealer's hole card. Playing outside of the rules is defined as cheating. And when you cheat in a casino expect to be treated roughly (whether you're "legally right" or not).

Do you people even bother to read my posts before shooting your keyboards off?

>This means that if you're sloppy enough to make your hand visible to the other players (even just the player next to you) it is your own fault and they are allowed to use that information. That is not cheating.

Technically speaking, yes it is cheating. Just because the other player is helping you cheat is irrelevant. You don't HAVE to look at his cards.

Rules say the dealer gets two cards...one face up and one face down. There is no rule that says what a player must or must not look at in the event the down card it unintentionally exposed. There is no rule that says a player must notify the casino that their game is compromised.

We're advantage players and it is our job to take legal advatage of these places. Exploiting errors in casino procedures and promotions are all just part of the job. I will say that exploting payoff errors is a bit shady...but if a dealer is going to pay me on a losing hand by mistake who am I to complain.

"Maybe a bit of defensiveness or a subconscious realization that I may be right?"

Be right about what? I no longer have any idea what you think. You mix and mingle the words legal/illegal, moral/immoral, honest, pure, cheating, etc such that it is impossible for me to keep up.

Your original question was as follows: "So winning with the dealer's (knowing) help is considered cheating, but winning with the dealer's (unknowing) help, known as "hole carding", is not cheating. Could someone please explain that for me?"

One is illegal, one is not. That's it, as concise as I know to make it.

In the spirit of fair play let me say that if I have mis-understood your posts, I apologize. Never was it my intent to spin your thoughts or twist your words. Possibly our biggest dis-connect is when you use the word "cheat" I hear the word "illegal."

But also know this .. if I am playing next to you in a poker game you better watch your cards closely, because I will. If you ever find yourself dealing BJ to me you better watch your hole card closely, because I will.

If I see a packet of rich high cards (or a packet of excess low cards for that matter) go into the discard tray, I'll try to follow them out thru the next shuffle up and hope I get the cut card. If the dealer is not going to chastize me, I might stack my bet such that he might make a payoff error in my favor. If the guy next to me is bending his cards, I'll watch for them next time around. I will do all this while fully realizing that the casino will take a dim view of what I am doing and therefore only push my efforts as far as I think I can without drawing any unwanted entanglements.

In short, I will open my eyes and pay attention to what's going on around me and take every legal advantage I can to win that game and not feel one bit bad about it.

Now, you may see that as cheating; I don't.

Have a Happy New Year.

We already had this conversation with Getting Down when he was calling himself Red Bored. I don't think there's any convincing someone that states:

I must say that I've never seen a bunch who DESERVE to get the crap beat out of them by a casino security guard than the ones in this forum!

Of course, everyone's entitled to his opinion, even if it's the wrong one :^).

Regards,
MF