Winnings with the Dealer's helps

This is a wake up call for some AC regulars. Don't be dishonest when there's easy money for the taking in casinos. Several years ago, an AC regular told me about a dealer who could help the regulars to make some easy money from a casino. He mentioned that dealer could do tricks for us without being caught. In return that dealer got "tipped" after work on the Broadwalk. His "sweet talk" was tempting, but somehow I was glad I said NO to his suggestion. How so? Read the story linked below and judge yourself---winning in conhort with a dealer DON'T pay.

taking in account only unsuccessfull story is not the best way to
have an opinion.

What about some successfull story ?

working with a dealer to cheat the casino is a terrible idea. There are plenty of success stories, of course; not everyone gets caught. But, this is a criminal act, and these things are punished severely in all casino venues. EV is high, but RoR is much higher. Forgitaboutit. PV

Let's talk a little about casino cheating for themself.
'Mechanic','Barring' sound good for you ?

How much casino have been caught for cheating ?
How much ?

Your vision of the casino is biased , except of course if you
talk for them, is it ?

PV is one of the country's leading AP's....has been for decades. He is telling you do nothing to put yourself in jeopardy. Listen up. He knows what he's talking about.

You can benefit from dealer error, but don't let it look intentional or give the impression that there is a partnership at work. The risk is never worth it.

The topic of mechanics and casino cheating is a whole different area. Some isolated incidents still crop up. Mostly this is in out of the way casinos run far from public purvey.....some Indian casinos have been suspect at times or small independent operations. One famous incident was the Pioneer Club in 1968. They were caught with a deck of cards missing some tens. The fine was $10,000 and they were allowed to re-open without table games......as a slot club only. The penalties for a casino caught cheating are also not worth the risk.

If an individual is caught, he is generally subject to prosecution to the fullest extent of the law. This may also include being barred from ever working or attending casinos as a player. There are plenty or ways to improve your EV that are legal. Stay away from anyone who would make you a partner in cheating and you will be doing yourself a favor. I think this was the intent of Novena's post and we are in total agreement with his premise.

Good Post.

Some people may be confused by Pit Viper�s handle, and think he works in the pits.

Mr. Viper has a very distinguished biography, which I am obviously not going to go into here, But one of the things he has done is to be a race-car driver. The �pits� in his handle are those �pits�.

(PV: If you think this post is inappropriate, let me know and I can bust it. )

play with a dealer who will help you out, by saying certain things, clue words, looks, or just blatant tell's, like "6 in the hole".

Why they do such things is anyones guess, more tips,? angry at the casino,?, a like for you?. But, really, that should be of no concern to you as a player.

The key thing in this situation is you never asked or paid for this activity, you just simply take advantage of dealer "error". No collusion.

To conspire with a dealer to perform such things is indeed criminal and as such a foolish thing to do.

Most advantage players pride themselves in the art of "dealer manipulation", just listen to them talk and it will almost always come up. Many claim to have this skill but in reality few have what it takes to carry it out. Personally i think such activities are unsavory and dangerous.

Perhaps you should read Bill Zender's book "Casino Cheating at Blackjack" for information of the kind you are looking for. Zman tells a number of stories of casinos cheating the patrons. He is very knowledgeable about such things, has researched his work well, and you can trust him as a source, even though he has had ties to the casino industry. Some of us on this site had a little input to his book several years ago. If you need more information, feel free to ask. Still, the best advice I can give is, if you find a dealer who is willing to cheat for you, walk away immediately. Don't even sit at the same table with someone who is cheating; you may be implicated just for being there. Bonne chance, PV

I agree with PitViper here. You do not want to be one of those terminal losers who would rather earn a dishonest quarter rather than an honest dollar.
In addition, collusion scams are pretty easy to detect by analysis of the play of the hands, and the play will be analyzed if you have a suspicious win. You can string it out obviously, but then you increase exposure to gain reduced risk on an individual session.

There are much easier undetectable ways to cheat, where you don't have to risk a second party not paying up. Even scumbag logic doesn't hold up when looking at this cooly.

Final point: many of us have greater expected earnings than that of a typical cheat. Some legal techniques are comparable in terms of edge, and you do not have to worry quite so much about exposure or bet size.

So winning with the dealer's (knowing) help is considered cheating, but winning with the dealer's (unknowing) help, known as "hole carding", is not cheating. Could someone please explain that for me? Thanks.

I don't know of any legal means of getting an edge comparable to some cheating techniques, and would certainly like to learn. Let's talk about this some time. There are cheating techniques that are virtually 100% ev. However, the risk of ruin is far too high. There are actually people in prison in Nevada serving LIFE terms for cheating in a casino. Not for robbing the place, just for cheating. Remember the monkeypaw slot cheat? Life sentence. PV

If you are a dealer, inadvertently showing a player the hole card is a mistake that can get you fired. Purposely showing a hole card is a mistake that can get you arrested. It gets even worse. If you want to steal from a casino, go to the gift shop and steal something; if you get caught, it's a misdemeanor, and you will likely get off with a fine. If, instead, you steal a chip from a table, that's a felony and will likely get jail time. PV

and that makes cheating with the dealers knowing help illegal.

Beating someone at a fair game because they are a moron and can't handle cards properly is not.

Of course, if the hole carding is blatant enough I might consider leaving the table. I would hate to have the casino assert that I and the dealer were cheating in collusion, even though we were not. The short term negative impact on my personal life would be the same.

Ok, so if the dealer and player are in collusion then they are both cheating. If the player is on his own then he's the only one who is cheating and the dealer is not guilty of such an act.

The player is not cheating just because the dealer is unknowingly showing his hole card. You seem to keep wanting to insist that hole carding is cheating .. it simply is not.

The fact that they may catch you .. and try to prove you were colluding with the dealer .. and ruin the next six months of your life while you defend yourself .. still does not make it illegal. You may see it as cheating, and that's fine with me, but it is not illegal.

The player is doing the exact same thing in both cases. The ONLY difference is that the dealer is not in on it. But I guess my position won't be popular among those who need to cheat in order to win rather than use honest card counting methods.

There is nothing about hole card observation that equates cheating, unless done in collusion with a crooked dealer. To think otherwise is naive and silly. Even the casinos understand and recognize it is not cheating. The Nevada Supreme Court has ruled it is not cheating.

You seem to be the only one who thinks that somehow hole card observation is cheating.

>Even the casinos understand and recognize it is not cheating.

Now THAT's silly! Peek at hole cards (whether in cahoots with the dealer or not) and see how they react should they catch you (and they eventually will).

I never said that hole carding was illegal or immoral. I merely stated that it is cheating. If someone wants to use such a strategy then more power to them but they better know the risks beforehand. Whether the dealer is flashing his hole card deliberately or accidently is irrelevant. The player's actions are the same in each case.

And, if I was sitting at the table with a hole card flasher I would leave that table as fast as I could, because having the casinos catch you doing something like that (regardless of whether or not you are actually engaging in something criminal) will make one an immediate target and thus reduce your EV to zero in an instant. I will be happy to scrape my relatively meager profits using straight-up card counting and know that a casino security guard won't hit me with a cattle prod and have me (falsely or not) charged with a crime. Ok so you're not really "cheating" but who needs the hassle of hiring lawyers and going to court to (maybe) prove it?

.. my last two posts.

You asked for an explanation of the difference in hole carding, both with and without the dealers knowledge. Again, the first is illegal, and you go to jail. The second, is not, and your EV jumps dramatically.

I might add that if your hole carding, it is no lock-cinch you win all the hands. It's still gambling; if you don't have the proper BR, skill, and discipline -it's still a loseing proposition.

I might also add that your forays into card counting are as susceptible to mis-treatment by the casino as your forays into hole carding. If they decide to make an example of you, they will.

I might also add again that while you seem to hold card counting in such high esteem (when compared to hole carding), there are legions of people out there who think card counters -like yourself - are worthless cheating scum.

Happy New Year.

>Perhaps you should read Bill Zender's book "Casino Cheating at Blackjack" for information of the kind you are looking for

Have it but not read yet.

>If you need more information, feel free to ask.

Just curious

1) How can you detect if you have been cheated by the casino

(mainly for 6 decks shoes) ?

2) what to do in this situation ?

See 'ROR' for 1 and 'leave' for 2 ?

no (yes ?) so what ?

Having some winning technics may be a waste of time if you
are unable to detect proper playing condition.

It's funny to see how poor this aspect of the game is discuted.

and the danger is EVERYWHERE (see discution on Prague on this Board).

Quartex.