What�s your most scrutinized play?

Maybe, it�s because b.j. hasn�t been around that long where I play, but it�s been around too long for people to consistently stay on twelves against face cards and the yell at me for taking the bust card. (I love when they do this when the count < �10.) I am sick so of stupid ploppies giving me sh!t for the way I play.

The other day a self-proclaimed b.j. expert practically grabbed a hold of my cards, pleading for me not to hit my soft-seventeen against a seven, and yelled something like �the dealer can only make his hand with two cards.� I also get a lot of scuff for splitting nines against nines and doubling a ten against a ten when the count calls for it.

But, by a long shot, my most scrutinized move is when I hit a soft eighteen against and 9-A, a correct b.s. play! I try to act just as superstitious and ignorant as them and convince them that I�m just going on a hunch, but my steam builds up after hours of verbal assault, and I say �I know it seems weird, but it�s the correct move mathematically.� They always respond with, �Well, I don�t know anything about math, but I�ve been playing this game a looooong time (usually 2 years), and I KNOW the flow of the cards.�

I�m curious to know what plays everyone else get sh!t for.

...with a black chip on the baize, instead of hitting my 16 vs a 10, I doubled for less - for one dollar!

This caused so much confusion and attention from the pit, that I will never do it again.

By the way, even though the count was up (hence the black chip), I did receive a small card, and made an extra dollar on the play.

This doesn't classify as a most scrutinized play but it certainly was unique. After back counting a table where only one person was playing, I entered play with a true count of 3. I played two hands and the other player was playing two hands also. The dealer gave all four hands face cards and then turned a face card up on his face for a complete push on all hands. The 10 face cards eliminated the advantage and I walked away from the table.

This might seem like a petty thing for a counter to have on him, but it may aid in cover as well. Keep one of those strategy cards on you. You know, the colorful ones about the size of a credit card. Although you know that you don't need it, you can pretend to glance at it on the "questionable" plays while others are making their decisions. I have found most of the time that ploppies don't question those cards. As an added bonus, it takes a big amount of heat off of you. I mean, what card-counter needs a BS card to help him? If you deviate from BS, you can always say you checked the wrong spot on the card, and that was the cause of your mistake. Pit bosses rarely question your action if you are "relying" on those cards for assistance.

Also, I have found that when other ploppies run out of money and keep fueling the fire, and after a few hours you are still around your buy-in, they start to ask for advice all the time. Then you can say..."well, this card says to..." and leave it at that.

Another way to handle ploppies questioning your play: I tell them that I have been there a few hours already and still have all my money, you on the other hand, this is your third buyin, which one of us is probably doing something wrong?

Method #3: "This isn't the only table, you don't like the way I play, then get the f*** off this table" Brandishing a firearm can further help to make this point clear.*

*Author does not endorse brandishing firearms at ploppies. In fact, you only imagined you saw that statement, and this one too.

Insurance is the biggest tell. AFter virtually never making an insurance bet you suddenly take it with a max bet out. The other highly scrutinized hand is 16 v 10. They look for players who hit with small bets and stand with big bets. Next would be 15 v 10... standing only with very big bets on the table.

If they are taking note of play on soft hands like A7 then it is a really clueless place. Poor players play these hands any kind of way with no consitency at all. Nothing can be derived from play on soft hands unless used in conjunction with lots of other information.

I validate my insurance call by saying that "I get scared of losing my big money" I tell them I can handle losing the small ones, but when I get gutsy, I don't want to lose to a dealer BJ.

As far as the 16 vs. 10 goes. As a counter you could choose to always stand, even in low counts as a cover play. If you play it consistently this will take some of the heat off. You will do more damage to your big bets if you always hit 16, and you will do more damage to your small bets if you always stand. I would stand on all 16s vs. 10 because small money lost from incorrect play in low counts is offset by correct play in high counts. The actual cost of this cover play can be determined by measuring the -EV lost as a result of standing 16 vs. 10 in a low count. For an infinite deck, the difference is $0.06 per $100. So, someone spreading black to purple only pays 6 cents every time he gets a 16 vs. 10 in a low count for this cover play. Pretty cheap, huh?

As for the 15 vs. 10, I can only say to pretend to be scared of losing by busting when you have the big money out. If you act emotional or worried about the individual bet, you are less likely to be pegged as a counter. Most casinos know that good counters don't play with much emotion or worry about the outcome of one bet, so pretend you are worried and pretend to pray he breaks.

One not mentioned yet that ALWAYS draws the "Wrath of Ploppies" (WoP) is hitting stiffs versus small upcards in negative counts. It seems to me that the reason ploppies hate to see me do this is that I ALWAYS TAKE THE DEALER'S BUST CARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-)

No, really, it is because they notice that I don't play that hand consistently... sometimes I hit the stiff, but other times I stand. When I suffer WoP on this play, I dismiss their criticism with some line like "I had a hunch" or "The flow of cards indicated a hit".

Here's a tip on how you can improve your EV on these hands. One time I was playing in a shoe game (hence exposed hands). With a large negative count I had a nickel on the felt and received a 14 versus the dealer's 3. By the time the dealer got to me, the count was -10. As I prepared to hit (and mentally crossed off my $5), the ploppy at first base descended on me with WoP: "How can you hit that??? Don't you know that you'll be taking the dealer's bust card??? Are you crazy???" along with other equally persuasive statements and a few suggestions that would be anatomically impossible without major elective surgury. I noticed that he had raised his bet into this negative count (from $40 to $90) and was standing on a 20, so I said, "Give me $5 and I'll play the hand however you like." He tossed me a nickel and ordered me to stand. I complied, and then nearly bust a gut restraining a laugh as the dealer flipped her hole card (a face) and then drew an 8 to make 21. As she swept the table, the ploppy departed, muttering imprecations. What REALLY tickled me was that the next card out of the shoe was a 6... thus, I would have lost the hand either way, but thanks to the ploppy I was able to break even.

BTW, one of the tacit advantages of playing handheld games is that you can frequently avoid WoP. Even after the cards are flipped at the conclusion of the hand, the ploppies frequently aren't swift enough to see, for example, that you've hit your A-7 vs. a 10.

Dog Hand

...the count was up (hence the black chip)

The corrrect play was to stand. In effect, you didn't really double down, since you knew that any card you received was going to result in a standing situation or a bust. You just risked one extra dollar disguised as "doubling for less."

Did you do this just to antagonize the ploppies? The hit of 16 vs. 10 was the correct basic strategy play, of course, but not the correct play based on the count.

The ploppies, and in this case apparently the pit, probably didn't realize that what you actually did was hit with your bet capped by one dollar.

Funny play. Mathematically wrong, of course, but I may try it (with a minimum bet out) to drive superstitious ploppies away.

That'll teach me to write (or play) before I've had my coffee. Thanks for politely asking about my stupid statement instead of jumping in my stuff like I deserved.
:-)

It must have been against a dealer's eight or nine. In any event, it was a couple of years ago, when I was using KO, and I would have stood on -8 or higher with a 16 against a ten (with no surrender available).

The reason I did it was that I had heard about someone else doing it for shucks and grins, and decided to try it myself. It caused such a commotion that I never tried it again.

I don't remember which book I read this in but when someone doesn't like your play simply tell them, "as long as I'm betting my money I'm going to play the cards the way I see fit, if you want to bet for me I'll be happy to play any way you'd like."

Hey, I'm not a counter but I get the same reaction everytime I hit the soft 18 against 9-Ace. But the kicker for me was last week while I was playing at Gold Strike in Tunica, this dealer virtually STOPPED the game to give a lesson on insurance. He was adamant that if the player has a good hand that it was the correct mathmatical play to make to take the insurance. Now, I realize that if you count, there are times to take insurance, but someone like myself that doesn't and only plays Basic Strategy NEVER takes insurance, under any situation.

Now, if I'm wrong here, let me have it. Afterall, I will BELIEVE you guys...I know you know the game better than 99% of dealers today.

I also like the players that have a soft 17 and NEVER would hit it, even against the dealers Ace. I think you guys call these players ploppies? By the way, WHAT does ploppies mean? Please don't laugh. (I'm learning as you can see)

Radar

P.S. I still hit soft 18's and don't take insurance. And I just call these players "suckers".

Hey, I'm not a counter but I get the same reaction everytime I hit the soft 18 against 9-Ace. But the kicker for me was last week while I was playing at Gold Strike in Tunica, this dealer virtually STOPPED the game to give a lesson on insurance. He was adamant that if the player has a good hand that it was the correct mathmatical play to make to take the insurance. Now, I realize that if you count, there are times to take insurance, but someone like myself that doesn't and only plays Basic Strategy NEVER takes insurance, under any situation.

Now, if I'm wrong here, let me have it. Afterall, I will BELIEVE you guys...I know you know the game better than 99% of dealers today.

Don't always just believe anybody. Intelligently, but politely, always ask for the reasons when they aren't clear. (I'm still smarting from embarrassment of my intial above post in this thread.)

I also like the players that have a soft 17 and NEVER would hit it, even against the dealers Ace.

Yes, it is mathmatically correct to hit both soft 17 and soft 18 even in basic strategy when the dealer has a strong upcard because that ace is so flexible that your chances of improving the hand, or at least drawing a ten which will leave the hand the same outweigh the chances of weakening the hand or even eventually busting. (Although the requisite winching and admonishments of the dealer and other players are almost unavoidable.)

I think you guys call these players ploppies? By the way, WHAT does ploppies mean? Please don't laugh.

There was a thread recently on Greenchip discussing this. Frank Scoblete first coined the phrase. I got into an argument with a certain vampire about the veracity of Scoblete in that thread. I hold much disdain for Scoblete for his allegiance to "hot" craps shooters and his weak and unsound method of determining them along with his romantic writings aimed at pandering ploppies for the casinos' sake in a casino biased publication. (BTW, join Greenchip.)

But, I digress.
A ploppy is one who plops his butt down at the table, plops his money out, and proceeds to wager on superstition, hunch, or some other form of voodoo.

The good advantage player loves the ploppy. He realizes that the money he takes from the casino essentually comes from this guy, so he forgives him for his bitching about said advantage player's splitting nines and taking dealer's bust card.

God bless the ploppy, for I shall inherit his fortune.

(I'm learning as you can see)

Looks to me like you are doing that quite well.

Radar
Didn't you just spell that backwards last time?

P.S. I still hit soft 18's and don't take insurance. And I just call these players "suckers".

Ploppies or suckers. Six or half a dozen.

You said..."A ploppy is one who plops his butt down at the table, plops his money out, and proceeds to wager on superstition, hunch, or some other form of voodoo."

Yep, just like I said, a sucker!

You also said..."advantage player loves the ploppy. He realizes that the money he takes from the casino essentually comes from this guy, so he forgives him for his bitching about said advantage player's splitting nines and taking dealer's bust card. God bless the ploppy, for I shall inherit his fortune."

You neglected to praise the ploppy for giving us a game we can beat. Think about it, if everyone played intelligently or at an advantage, the house would lose at BJ and they would not offer it up.

..."Radar
Didn't you just spell that backwards last time?"

Wow, I didn't realize it, I guess I did. Ops, I guess I spelled WOW backwards, as well.

" P.S. I still hit soft 18's and don't take insurance. And I just call these players "suckers ".

Be kind now. A sucker dosen't know he is getting his pants jerked off. I suspect a large majority of the ploppies aren't suckers .. they know exactly what is getting ready to happen to them. They just hope it takes a little longer this time.

Good luck.

Do you get the feeling the market has priced in a one-notch downgrade for F to BBB- by S&P. Sept sales are coming out on October 1 and I suspect F will again disappoint in absolute numbers, thus prompting further production in Q4:03. F will again spin it's making it up on mix while it's market share continues to crater.

Do you agree?

Many of you complain about ploppies scrutinizing our hands, and I have to admit it pisses me off too. But I learned to turn it to my advantage:
1) In neutral counts, I like Duane's suggestion of carrying a basic strategy card. Sometimes I would ask the floorman (not the dealer, he/she's useless) what to do with a soft 18 against a ten. This has two advantages: it gives me the benefit of the doubt as far as being a counter in his/her mind. The second more important benefit is he/she might pull an index card to check the play, and that would tell me he doesn't even know basic strategy. You'll be amazed how many don't know basic strategy. If I was a running a casino, I woud fire these people. So in neutral counts, you have no choice but to take the abuse of ploppies. You might say: well that's what the book says, and invariably a jerk would say: do you know who wrote the Book? THE CASINOS!!!!! I act shocked, but by that time, I had made my (correct) play.

2) In negative and highly positive counts, act OBNOXIOUS. This may be hard for some mild-mannered individuals, and I respect you if you're one. But you're trying to make a living here....In negative counts, I become confrontational with the ploppy, especially if I was winning a lot at that table, and take it as an excuse to leave, not after making a nasty remark. Maybe the dealer and the ploppy will label you (not a counter but) a "jerk", and this looks perfectly natural. Look for greener pastures.

3) If the count is highly positive, you may suggest to the ploppy who is criticizing you to find another table, if he thinks your play is hurting him/her, becuase you're not going to change it. That's it, no explanations. They usually leave when treated like that. Sometimes they will make a nasty and impolite remark. Do not reply, and certainly never loudly. Now you can have that positive shoe for yourself or share it with fewer players.

Be careful about irritating the other players by hitting in negative counts. They may simply leave your table. This means that you will have to eat a lot of negative cards yourself. Sometimes it can cost more than the gain from hutting in that one hand.

Of course, if the cut card is already out, then you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by this tactic.

In pitch games, I usually show all the other players my cards. And try to encourage them to show theirs. We want to see their cards for several reasons. First, it helps up the play the current hand. Second, we get up to date information for betting purposes, so we don�t have to wait for all the cards to be exposed before betting. I think this is a Huge Tell.

Of course, the best thing is to play pitch games alone.

We had an Asian high-roller at Foxwoods (the player was late-20's/early-30's, a dot.com multi-millionaire) who would do this double-down everytime he 'had' to hit a 2-card 16. He would frequently also place a $1 bet for the dealers when he made the bet for himself. He always played with an entourage and 'seemed' to be conversing with them, but I noticed that he and at least one of his entourage checked every card that left the shoe.

He was a multi-black to multi-orange ($1000 chip at Foxwoods) player. I think he used this to cover his AP, since after a couple of the plays the 'floors' seemed to ignore his moves when a dealer would 'announce' any of his non-standard (AP) plays.

He was very sociable with the dealers and the 'floors' and was a green-chip toker, which aided his cover. Since he played at $100+ tables, the move never flustered either the dealers or the 'floors' at Foxwoods.

That dot.com multi-millionaire cover story gets them every time. ;>)

I hold my cards so that any player wants to see them may. But I find that not 1 in 4 players will do so in kind even where the dealer has an ace showing and is asking for insurance. Is there some method you use to try to get the other players to hold their cards so as to be able to see them?