This is a nasty little board, isn't it?

I've been a regular contributor on the outside USA board for years.

A couple of people suggested I should come over here and post more often on this board.

So I've come over here for a few days now and perused quite a few of the threads, and I'm sorry to say this is a particularly nasty and bitter bulletin board. Is it always like this?

I've had my fair share of abuse and bitter exchanges over on the outside USA board, but it's nothing compared to the stuff here.

Excuse me for asking, but do you guys evey talk about BlackJack? You know, like where to find good games, advantage play strategies, that kind of thing? That's what I'd like to talk about, not just slagging each other off. It's all pretty childish really.

AWS

Unfortunately, there are several bj enthusiasts here that think they have discovered the magic/silver bullet (CC or whatever) and ready to jump against any poster who they think has a different opinion than theirs. Besides, few are too eager to label, and then proceed to ridicule posters about whom they know little or nothing.

IMO, most of them appear to be of limited experience enthusiasts. They seem to think that they've found the silver bullet and that alone is the sure and only way of winning.

... to visit The Yahoo Card Counters' Cafe. G

..have been made on how to clean up this board. In the last while it's been allowed to degenerate into a cesspool. Some have likened the situation to what happened on rec.gambling.blackjack with the Doug Grants of the world. While the newsgroup putrefied through neglect and being completely unmoderated, the problem here seems to be the by-product of a completely calculated business decision:

The free pages of BJ21 are also the biggest competition for green chip... We try to enhance the value of green chip whenever we can, but we are leery of enhancing the value of the free pages too much because that amounts to enhancing the value of our chief competition.

-Stanford Wong

Simple passwords were rejected outright:

We try to be as businesslike in decisions regarding BJ21 as we are in decisions regarding playing blackjack or poker or betting sports. We try to estimate expected value and we try to estimate risk. In our opinion, controlling access to the free pages of BJ21 has negative expected value and carries considerable downside risk.

-Stanford Wong

...I mean he is running a business, and if there is nothing to differentiate the free and green pages then why would anyone ever join the green pages?

Such a shame though that a few loonies have to ruin it for the sensible majority. You have to wade your way through the crap to get to the good stuff.

I wonder why the flaming is so much more intense here than on the outside USA board? It's not just the volume of bustable posts, I'm talking about the intensity of the flames. Any theories?

I'm interested in this because I have a website which has a board only open to a select few (I'm a BlackJack teacher and the select few are the graduates from my school), and there has been discussion about a public board. Some are for, some are against. Personally, I am against.

AWS

Passwords would be given for posting privileges, not simply access, which I agree would be negative. The free boards would remain open to anyone who wants to view them. A basic registration form would have to be sent in to be issued a password for posting. I'm still not sure why there is so much reluctance to accept that idea.

This kind of thing seems to run in cycles on this board. It is almost as if there is a seasonal holiday for the asylums and all of the inmates come here for a few weeks. As you can see from another post in this thread, SW has made a business decision to loosely moderate this board. It is his board and he can run it as he chooses. It is up to us to make good posts and to discourage the nutcases and bitter people who post here by simply not responding to them.

I�ve been a regular contributor on the outside USA board for years.
A couple of people suggested I should come over here and post more often on this board.
So I�ve come over here for a few days now and perused quite a few of the threads, and I�m sorry to say this is a particularly nasty and bitter bulletin board. Is it always like this?
I�ve had my fair share of abuse and bitter exchanges over on the outside USA board, but it�s nothing compared to the stuff here.
Excuse me for asking, but do you guys evey talk about BlackJack? You know, like where to find good games, advantage play strategies, that kind of thing? That�s what I�d like to talk about, not just slagging each other off. It�s all pretty childish really.

BJ21 has three dozen message boards, and each has its own personality. We make no attempt to force each board to have the same personality, and indeed could not do so if we wanted because the personality of a particular message board is determined by the topic of that board and the personalities of the frequent posters on that board.

Instead of uniformity we have diversity. If you want genteel discussion you can find it on BJ21, but not on every board. If you want "nasty and bitter" you can find it on BJ21, but not on every board. If you want "where to find good games, advantage play strategies, that kind of thing" you can find it on BJ21, but not on every message board.

The free pages of BJ21 have no barriers to access. Anyone can post on the free pages of BJ21; there is no mechanism to keep anyone from posting. That being the case, it's possible for a free page to have a regular visitor whose posts reduce rather than enhance the quality of the page. In order to ban a person from a message board there must be a barrier to access, such as a password requirement, and most of the message boards on BJ21 do require passwords for access.

My suggestion is: Determine what you want out of BJ21, and find the particular message boards that give you what you are looking for, and ignore the rest. Do not expect to enjoy every single message board of BJ21. But be thankful that those other message boards exist, because they provide homes for all those posts you would rather not encounter on the message boards you do visit.

Stanford Wong

Andrew Scott came here because Clarke Cant asked him to come here
and communicate for him. Andrew said that sounded like fun. As for me, the precious few questions I have asked (all on blackjack) were answered ONLY by Don Shlesinger. Now he is gone and we are lessened for it. I prefer the Wong style of advantage play, that is why I came
to these pages and yet many seem to try and push their ideas which
have nothing to do with this style of advantage play and that easily explains to me why Don would be so passionate in his responces to posts that either don't communicate well or are totally off the mark.

The problem is inherent and in the nature of the medium of the internet. And, all open boards are not immune to this very problem.

Just think of attending any university. You have to enroll meeting certain min. requirements for attendance and participation. That pretty much brings together a group of individuals with a common goal or purpose of studying a given course of study in a structured environment and timeframe. Those in attendance happen to be a selected group of people who already have attained a certain level of background knowledge. Furthermore they have expressed a committment to pursue further learning by their very act of enrollment.

No such structured environment and committed people exist on open internet message boards. You could have posters who are 15 and are having fun to express whatever they feel at a moment of their fantasy or have posters who basically do not meet nor min. reqs neither have any motivation but just play out their crude instincts. The internet could especially be a refuge or escape from reality to many folks and how about those internet junkies whose larger part of living their lives is on the internet exposing most of their darker worlds without any restraint. Hence, one could have posts from PHD's being ridiculed by a punk and a view expressed by an experienced person attacked by those who would not have a clue of what they're talking about.

Do I have any solution? Not really.

But, by and large, those who already are in the know about the subject matter, over time get to know those whose character and knowledge becomes outlined in many of their posts. And, for sure, those known posters become the reason for many of us to frequent some of these message boards. Well, that's my opinion. What do you think?

Andrew Scott came here because Clarke Cant asked him to come here and communicate for him.

That was a catalyst, but Clarke was not the only one. See my thread with Clarke on outside USA pages for the full story.

Andrew said that sounded like fun.

Not true, Clarke said that sounded like fun. Re-read the thread.

As for me, the precious few questions I have asked (all on blackjack) were answered ONLY by Don Shlesinger.

Really? Only one person ever actually helped you out? All credit to DS if that is so. May I ask approximately how many questions you asked over what period of time? I am curious.

Now he is gone and we are lessened for it. I prefer the Wong style of advantage play,...

...you mean the right style!! In my experience over the years Wong is a very strong author, I've found it hard (impossible?) to disagee with anything he has ever written in a book. Additionally, his style of writing is easy on my ear, I understand it well. I've read about 145 books on professional gambling and IMHO Wong would have to be in the top few authors (if not the top).

I offer these comments not to be sycophantic, but as an opinion I've acquired after 15 years of professional gambling play and research. I've read all the authors with an open mind, and formed my views on the authors over the years.

...that is why I came to these pages...

...me too...

and yet many seem to try and push their ideas which have nothing to do with this style of advantage play and that easily explains to me why Don would be so passionate in his responces (sic) to posts that either don't communicate well or are totally off the mark.

Interesting. Well I guess in a free society anyone is at liberty to present to you his idea, no matter how crazy. I guess that's the old "I disagree with what you're saying, but defend to the death your right to say it" thing.

I don't mind people presenting ideas: both the currently accepted norm and the "crazy" alternatives, this is a good way to advance and continually review the body of knowledge on any particular topic. Remember they laughed at Copernicus when he suggested the world was not flat.

I guess if people present their ideas, then others can make judgments of those ideas. I want to see a broad spectrum of ideas! That stimulates my own brain, gives me tangents to go off and think upon myself. Sometimes a totally errorneous idea as to the answer to a problem could provide the seed to actually solving the problem, because proving that that particular proposed solution is incorrect can start the creative juices flowing.

I guess that's what happened for me when I read all the BJ books. I read many books with many ideas, some I rejected (eg. John Patrick), some I agreed with (eg. Wong). Some I concluded were fairly lightweight (eg. Scoblete - no offence meant), others strong and heavy thinkers (eg. Griffin). These conclusions came about not as a result of personalities, but because of my interpretation and perception of their work, after my own analyses of it.

It is OK to be vehement, even passionate in the criticism of an idea, but when that passion slips over into criticm of the person who is presenting that idea, it becomes just rudeness. Having said that, I like to think I am wise enough to know that even passion in criticising an idea can be misinterpreted by the owner of that idea (who may be dearly in love with it) as a personal attack. Thus if one disagrees with an idea, I feel it is good to do it in a somewhat dispassionate way, heavily relying on good solid arguments as to why an idea is perhaps not so good.

I guess what I trying to say is "hey, John, have you thought about this possibility....?" is better than "John, grow a brain, your idea is utter crap....!!!"

Just my thoughts.

AWS

Especially this bit:

It is up to us to make good posts and to discourage the nutcases and bitter people who post here by simply not responding to them.

In my experience this is the best form of retort if you are attacked unnecessarily or unfairly. By not responding you make a statement (both to yourself and your attacker) that your attacker's post is not even worthy of a response.

AWS

questions in the past couple of weeks. I am new here. The first went
totally unanswered by anyone. The second was answered by Don.
I want to focus on the "right" techniques. I am not interested at this time in all of the fluff, personal stuff, and just plain weird
ideas. I joined GC but still find myself popping into virtually all of the pages. Anyway, my main point is I feel a bit of a lessened value for my money now that Don has left,,, bad timing I guess.

The problem is inherent and in the nature of the medium of the internet. And, all open boards are not immune to this very problem.

I agree wholeheartedly. I have a personal rule which is that I never say anything to another person on the internet that I would not be prepared to say and then defend to their face. Incidentally, I also have this rule for conversations about a third party (ie. I generally will not say to A anything about B that I would not be prepared to say to B's face).

Just think of attending any university. You have to enroll meeting certain min. requirements for attendance and participation. That pretty much brings together a group of individuals with a common goal or purpose of studying a given course of study in a structured environment and timeframe. Those in attendance happen to be a selected group of people who already have attained a certain level of background knowledge. Furthermore they have expressed a committment to pursue further learning by their very act of enrollment.

No such structured environment and committed people exist on open internet message boards. You could have posters who are 15 and are having fun to express whatever they feel at a moment of their fantasy or have posters who basically do not meet nor min. reqs neither have any motivation but just play out their crude instincts.

I essentially agree with you, but note that there is a little commonality between the posters in that they all have:

1. found these pages, and
2. decided for whatever reason they want to post on them

Agreed this is hardly as strong as all posters meeting pre-requisites for a University subject but it is something. I wouldn't have thought a 15 year old Back Street Boys fan would generally want to post here (let the wave of condemnation from pro BJ playing Back Street Boys fans commence..lol)

The internet could especially be a refuge or escape from reality to many folks ...

..."could be" a refuge or escape? I would have just said "is" a refuge or escape...

...and how about those internet junkies whose larger part of living their lives is on the internet exposing most of their darker worlds without any restraint. Hence, one could have posts from PHD's being ridiculed by a punk and a view expressed by an experienced person attacked by those who would not have a clue of what they're talking about.

I totally agree.

Do I have any solution? Not really.

But actually, you go on to propose a solution to the "problem":

But, by and large, those who already are in the know about the subject matter, over time get to know those whose character and knowledge becomes outlined in many of their posts.

Good point. Reputations become established over time, and thus the trolls' posts become almost like those banners that you just don't even see after a while, since you have trained your brain to ignore them.

And, for sure, those known posters become the reason for many of us to frequent some of these message boards.

That's a good enough reason for me, even though I have other reasons for being here.

AWS

BJ21 has three dozen message boards, and each has its own personality. We make no attempt to force each board to have the same personality, and indeed could not do so if we wanted because the personality of a particular message board is determined by the topic of that board and the personalities of the frequent posters on that board.

Instead of uniformity we have diversity. If you want genteel discussion you can find it on BJ21, but not on every board.

Which board has the genteel discussion?

If you want "nasty and bitter" you can find it on BJ21, but not on every board. If you want "where to find good games, advantage play strategies, that kind of thing" you can find it on BJ21, but not on every message board.

Where's that board.....that's my board!

The free pages of BJ21 have no barriers to access. Anyone can post on the free pages of BJ21; there is no mechanism to keep anyone from posting. That being the case, it's possible for a free page to have a regular visitor whose posts reduce rather than enhance the quality of the page. In order to ban a person from a message board there must be a barrier to access, such as a password requirement, and most of the message boards on BJ21 do require passwords for access.

But does that necessarily stop posters who reduce the quality of a board? Are you saying that as a practical matter you can and will cancel the green or black chip account of a poster that you feel reduces the quality of those pages? You are now presented with a conflict of expectation since that poster is a paying customer (and a pain in the asses' money is just as good as anybody elses).

I could rather cheekily suggest that the more that customer pays, the more motivated BJ21 would be to not bar that poster, ergo, the black chip board has lower quality than the green chip.

Having said that, I readily acknowledge that the individual income from one poster would be negligible compared to the accumulated ill-will of all the other members from not barring the person in question.

My suggestion is: Determine what you want out of BJ21, ...

OK, here it is:

1. Meet other high stakes black chip players
2. Develop these relationships and build trust over the years
3. Swap great games around the world and practical information on these games (eg critters to avoid, internal procedures, etc)
4. Help each other refine and develop advantage play techniques
5. Reduce my time committment to research and development by exchanging information with like-minded skilled players
6. Now and then help out new players to the game by sharing some of my skills with them

and find the particular message boards that give you what you are looking for, and ignore the rest.

Well, probably no-one knows this site better than you, might I be so bold as to ask you which boards would best suit me, given the criteria I have outlined above? So far I have found a little of 1, 2 and 3; none of 4 and 5; and a hell of a lot of 6 on the outside USA board.

Do not expect to enjoy every single message board of BJ21. But be thankful that those other message boards exist, because they provide homes for all those posts you would rather not encounter on the message boards you do visit.

Excellent point. Very good. Thank you in advance for your help.

AWS

It'll cost some money, but you'll find most of what you're looking for after hanging out on greenchip for a while. For two green chips a year, you'll get access to great information (the archives are great for newcomers) and you'll find a stronger sense of community. (Just avoid the non-gambling page - it tends to get nasty in there! :-)

"But does that necessarily stop posters who reduce the quality of a board? Are you saying that as a practical matter you can and will cancel the green or black chip account of a poster that you feel reduces the quality of those pages? You are now presented with a conflict of expectation since that poster is a paying customer (and a pain in the asses' money is just as good as anybody elses)."

Not only "can and will" but in fact has been done on more than one occasion. As a matter of fact, a good deal of the trashing of this free page is being done by by a couple of disgruntled former green chip members. I guess it is their infantile way of "getting even."

I would agree with Plover that your first step in getting what you want out of these pages would indeed be to join Green Chip.

The most posts from this board are against the improving perfomance to the playng efficiency.