some newbie questions

Hi all,
I enjoy playing BJ occasionally and I would like to become a skilled player (counter) in the next year or so. My research indicates that either the Hi-Opt I or K-O would be good ones to begin with. Any suggestions?

Also, I just got back from Vegas and I had a hard time telling if those shoes were holding 6 or 8 decks. What's predominant? I thought about using the size of the discard tray to give me an idea, but then the thought occurred to me that the discard tray might not exactly measure to the number of decks being used.

I used Hi-OptI before then switched to Hi-Lo, it's easier to have common language if you like to join a team later. Never learn K-O, so no comment.

From someone who has played extensively with the HI-OPT I and the Hi-LO(and currently the Hi-Opt II)- I would learn a count based on the type of games you play. If you play mainly SD or DD, I would learn the Hi-Opt I as it's playing efficiency is far superior to the Hi-Lo and it's betting correlation is superior if you accurately ace adjust. For shoes, I would probably reccomend the Hi-LO as an ace-side count can become tedious on multiple decks. As far as the K-O, I haven't seriously considered it because I have a bias against unbalanced counts. It seems feasible in single and double decks where the RC parallels the TC more or less, but it seems inifficient to me on a shoe game. Learn a count you can play accurately. Good luck.

My research indicates that either the Hi-Opt I or K-O would be good ones to begin with. Any suggestions?

Of these two, K-O is probably easier to learn. Also, though I haven't tried Hi-Opt I, I understand its real power is in single-deck play. Personally, I use Hi-Lo and haven't had any desire to switch to another Level 1 system (though I'm considering a level 2 system likes Halves)

I just got back from Vegas and I had a hard time telling if those shoes were holding 6 or 8 decks. What's predominant?

There's a simple way to determine how many decks are being used in a given game if you're unsure: ask the dealer. :)

Hi-opt I requires both an ace side count (for maximum effectiveness) and a true count conversion, KO requires neither, yet there is no significant difference in performance between the two systems.

Unless you plan on playing single and double deck games exclusively, I would start with KO.

However, this really isn't as important a decision as you might think. Any of the popular systems will get the job done if used properly.

If you wish to choose between KO and Hi-Opt I, I would suggest KO. Hi-Opt I requires an ace side count and a true count and KO is much easier to use, requiring neither.

As for the six or eight deckers, most of the shoe games in Las Vegas are still six deckers, but eight deckers are rearing their ugly heads more often. The easiest way to tell is to ask a dealer. Once you become used to the size of the shoes used in both games, they are generally pretty easy to spot.

I have a question. I recently bought Bryce Carlson's book, and have begun to undertake the requirements to learn the AOII. My question is that the book touts this as the "most powerful system" mathamatically, and even says that Stanford Wong was one of the editors; however, I see few, if any, players indicating that they use this count. If this system is so superior, why would a player settle for a level one count? If you learn the count properly, and sufficiently done your homework on both basic system and advanced play, it doesn't seem to me like much work to play with this system. In a few casino trial run attempts at counting using a modified advanced play and an ace side count, I found no problem in keeping up with the shoe. Is this unusual? Should I be happy with the work I've done and continue to learn the rest of the advanced plays? I have put approximately 6 weeks in so far, and learning a new system if necessary would be a small setback, but not a monumentous task. Thoughts? Any feedback would be appreciated.

It all boils down to what games you plan to play.

In six and eight deck shoe games, nearly all the player's advantage is gained through bet variation. The gains from strategy variation are relatively insignificant. Consequently, any counting system with a good betting correlation will perform well in these games. The level one systems have as good a BC as the more complex counts.

Most of the gains from using a multilevel count come in the area of playing efficiency. This is more important in single and double deck games.

Bottom line: If you plan to play single and double deck games almost exclusively, it might be worth your while to learn AOII or a similar count. AOII is indeed one of the top ranked counts for these games.

OTOH, if you are planning on playing a significant number of shoe games, a level one count (Hi-Lo, KO, Red 7, etc) will do the job just as well with fewer headaches.

For a good comparison of all the popular counting systems under a variety of game conditions, read Chapter 11 of Don Schlesinger's Blackjack Attack, 2nd ed.

As a new player, you're best bet is one of two systems: HiLo or KO. You really can't go wrong with either. If I had to recommend one, I'd say go with HiLo. More information is written with the assumption that the player is using HiLo than with any other system. I also feel HiLo makes more intuitive sense than KO. But as I said, you can't go wrong with either. You can go wrong with Hi-Opt (my old system.) Without an ace side count, it is extremely weak. And you probably have better things to do with your mental effort in a casino than keep a side count of aces.

As for number of decks, I think you've got it exactly right by looking at the discard tray. As someone (and I really wish I could remember who to credit for this) pointed out, the 6 deck discard trey is roughly the size of a fine can of beer. The 8 deck, roughly the size of the nastiest 16oz malt liquor can you've ever drank.

Now I suppose there is a chance of someone dealing 6 decks with an 8 deck tray. I have't seen it, but then again I never linger anywhere near 8 deck discard trays. One thing that works is to just ask the dealer, "Well gawlee that sure is a lot of cards - how many ya got there?"

OK, so I'm kidding about the voice. But do just ask. As long as you just sound curious, and not like you are scoping out the best rules, no one cares.

You can win 22-26% more money with Omega II in single or double deck, or 14-19% more money in 4-8 decks. I think even 14% is too big a difference to be dismissed and just might be worth a few headaches.

I have a single level count that is just at least as good as AOII, but it does require a side count.

6D Bombshell: Playing Strategy Is Key

As T-hopper points out you can make more money with AOII, provided of course you make few or no mistakes using it. As such, it's worth your time learning a better count.
The simple counts are good for one thing: they require almost zero effort, making your play seem effortless. This in itself is a valuable thing and should be weighed against any theoretical gains you might get with a better count. It never pays to be "made" as you struggle with a better count. Even mechanical play will get barred in some places.
If you enjoy an occassional beer or the social aspect of blackjack and are new to counting I'd recommend a single-level system.
I've used both and prefer a higher level only because I prefer concentrating on the game rather than the chatter.

I would not recommend starting out with the Hi-Opt count due to the complexity of keeping an ace side count. It's a good system - especially for handheld games - but it's just difficult to use. K-O is a very good system and very easy to use. You didn't mention Hi-Low, which is probably the most popular system in use right now. Personally, I have used Hi-Low for years and it has performed well for me, but if I were just starting out fresh I would strongly consider the K-O count since it is so easy to use and its performance is more or less equivalent to Hi-Low.

After a while you should be able to tell just by looking if you have six or eight decks. You can't always go strictly by the discard rack - I have sometimes seen six deck games at a table with one of the larger 8 deck discard racks. As others have recommended, you can always simply ask the dealer. Here's one other method. Watch when the dealer loads the pack of cards into the shoe. If the dealer has small to medium size hands, he or she can easily pick up six decks in one hand, but it's somewhat of a stretch to pick up eight decks in one hand.

EE

. . . 14-19% more money in 4-8 decks.

I based my conclusions on the SCORE charts in Chapter 11 of Blackjack Attack, 2nd ed.

I would be most interested in how you arrived at the above numbers.

Since I only play local 6 deck games and go to Nevada only 2-3 times a year, I switched from Hi-Lo to KO to make life simpler and not memorize as many different indexes. That's the real advantage of KO for sporadic players, indexes for strategy changes are rounded so are the same for any number of decks with only the 16-10 and betting up numbers being different. There are specific indexes in the KO book also if you want to go the next step and memorize them. Nice to be able to chat, have a beer, and still play a system well.

I used the full published systems from Blackjack for Blood and Professional Blackjack. Don's study used a subset of about 50 indices generated by SBA. As he said in there somewhere, systems with a higher PE stand to gain more from including more indices. Also, risk was considered when the indices from Blackjack for Blood were created.

Easiest way I found to tell the difference between 6 and 8 deck games is to look at the height of the discard tray. Sometimes the shoes seem to be set up at varying slope angles so it's harder to tell "how long" they are.