"Quadrupling down"

I just had the opportunity to play in a game where I could (not legally) "quadruple down".
I played one of the last boxes and if i got the right cards I quickly put some more chips in the betting circle.
When the dealer turned to me I did the "legal" double down.

Even after the dealer noticed it twice, I could do it again.
I was drunk and acted like I coudn't think anymore, so he thought I didn't realize my "mistake".

Can someone tell me the edge you get by "quadrupling down"?

I don't think that they offer Blackjack in jail. Smile for the camera that is directly above every BJ table in every major casino in America.

that casino personnel will bend you over backwards and tell you to "kiss your ass goodbye."

by sneaking more chips out after the deal is not something you will be able to do for long, even if the dealer doesn't notice or care, the camera guys, roving security or pitboss will probably see it shortly. That might be an arrestable-offense, so be careful. If this is a casino you'd like to continue playing you are taking a big risk, I doubt it is worth any short-term gain you get.

indicate that you are dishonest and a thief. There is enough to win by playing the game honestly.

I live in Europe and many casinos there don't have any observation.
The casino I mentioned has no pit bosses, just some dealers that wander around during their shifts.
Even bigger casinos in Europe often don't have cameras.
The strategies of advantage play is a secret to most staff members.

You just have to look drunk, joke with the dealer and look like not having a clue of the game.
I did it again and again, the few times the dealer noticed it, he friendly told me I had already doubled down and it's not necessary to lay down more money.
The many times he didn't notice it I got four times my original bet.

Of course in a standard U.S. casino, this method will not work.

But it would be fine if we could stop discussing the legal matters, and determine the edge (in per cent) of this style.

Well, I don't have any numbers to give you, but one thing to consider is whether doubling your bet and then doubling down in all BS double down situations is beneficial. I am thinking that on some plays you may not want to do this, because doubling down is not always an advantage play. In certain situations it is the best option (hence, it is the correct BS play), but still does not have a positive expectation. Obviously, certain plays like doubling on 11 v 6 have a positive expectation, but I am sure that some do not...

--Just a thought, Homer J.

"But it would be fine if we could stop discussing the legal matters, and determine the edge (in per cent) of this style."

In general, we double down about 10% of all hands, and, globally, our edge when we double is about 58%, I think. So, for the flat bettor, doubling contributes about .10 x (.58 - .42) = 1.6% to our final edge.

So, if you "quadruple down," that's how much you'll add. Instead of flat bet, use average bet, and you may have a ballpark estimate.

Don

I would imagine that quadrupling down is optimal in all situations where doubling down is optimal, and then some more.

Doubling down, in general, decreases the chance of winning the hand, but doubles your bet. So if the edge after doubling down is more than half the edge before doubling down, it's the right move. If you were able to qadruple your bet, the "after" edge would only need to be one fourth of the "before" edge. So I don't think there exists a situation where doubling is correct, but doubling for more is not. Feel free to correct me, though.

(Forgive me for using the vague term "edge;" I didn't want to use "EV" because that usually implies that the doubled bet size has been accounted for.)

Wong's Basic Blackjack, incidentally, mentions a situation where doubling for more is possible: when you play a matchplay coupon, and double it with chips. Since a matchplay is "worth" roughly half its face value, you're doubling with more than you originally bet.

"Wong's Basic Blackjack, incidentally, mentions a situation where doubling for more

is possible: when you play a matchplay coupon, and double it with chips. Since a

matchplay is "worth" roughly half its face value, you're doubling with more than you

originally bet."

Which is why, just recently, I was not allowed to double a matchplay coupon in Foxwoods, CT. Dealer expressly prohibited the double on the coupon but the PC then corrected the situation to allow the double with another coupon only.

I feel as if the situation the poster describes is not really quadrupling down. What he does is double the original bet when the dealer is not looking, then doubles down on that bet (now double the original bet). I am thinking that the EV doesn't change because the two situations are 1) doubling down on a 1 unit bet, and 2) doubling down on a 2 unit bet. The payout changes (2 units versus 4 units) but the EV does not, because he is not really quadrupling down on his original bet (e.g. placing multiple units next to his original 1 unit bet), he is simply doubling his bet size. I would think that he would only want to do this when the EV of the double down is positive. I assume that most double downs have a positive EV, but some may not, as they may be the "least bad" play in that particular situation. In these situations, it is not beneficial to increase the size of your bet. I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I suppose our answers have to do with our interpretation of what the poster really means.

....it sounds as if you aren't really quadrupling down. You are simply doubling your bet size, then doubling down on the new bet (which is double the original bet). This can be beneficial overall, but can be made even more beneficial, I believe, by only doing so in double down situations in which there is a positive EV. You do not want to increase the size of your bet when the play you are about to make does not have a positive EV. These are just my thoughts on the subject...perhaps others can confirm or deny what I am saying?

--Homer J.

> Well, I don't have any numbers to give you, but one thing to consider is whether doubling your bet and then doubling down in all BS double down situations is beneficial. I am thinking that on some plays you may not want to do this, because doubling down is not always an advantage play.

Excuse me? I believe you are quite mistaken. Doubling is correct only in situations where the (conditional) EV is positive.

> In certain situations it is the best option (hence, it is the correct BS play), but still does not have a positive expectation.

Please provide an example. If you doubled down in a negative EV situation, you would lose twice as much money.

> Obviously, certain plays like doubling on 11 v 6 have a positive expectation, but I am sure that some do not...

I am quite certain that you are wrong. Think about it -- if the play is negative EV, why would you go out of your way to lose twice as much?

Just because a casino has cameras does not necessarily mean someone is watching them. I used to work in a casino a while ago with no surveillance personnel. What's more, a lot of the cameras didn't even work. Occasionally, the pitboss (if you could really call him that, which is sort of a stretch) would review a tape, but that's about it. Generally, though, the cameras were rolling and nobody ever watched what went on. Of course, this place eventually went out of business, thanks, in large part, to the thieving dealers (I was not a dealer!). I know that the casino where I worked was not the only place like this either. I've found other casinos with no surveillance personnel - I'm not going to give away the methods by which you can ascertain such information, but you can. And by the way, I do not encourage cheating even in a situation where it is unlikely you will get caught. There are plenty of legal ways to win in these sorts of situations.

original bet, then 3 times original bet added after the cards have been seen. Where the $chip$ are placed makes no difference. Or even more than the original bet could be stacked on top of the original bet & then you could make it a quad, quint, ..... or what ever amount times the original bet.

Modern cameras are almost always charge coupled solid state devices that are designed for public handi-cam use. A simple mod of any cheaper Am or shortwave reciever---analog is best--- for the range of 43 Mhz, will give priceless clues. Similar can be done if you know approximately where the main security offices are---ask someone recently backroomed! You can often detect the signal of the sound input of a VCR being left unconnected, from an FM radio detectable 60 hz hum, broadcast in the range of 72 Mhz.

Shameless self bragging: bet that is better than what will win SW's prize on Greenchip this month! (Sorry SW, but personal considerations keep me from joining---plus Don's howls would ruin it for everyone.)

The VCRs are not running!

"Modern cameras are almost always charge coupled solid state devices that are designed for public handi-cam use. A simple mod of any cheaper Am or shortwave reciever---analog is best--- for the range of 43 Mhz, will give priceless clues. Similar can be done if you know approximately where the main security offices are---ask someone recently backroomed! You can often detect the signal of the sound input of a VCR being left unconnected, from an FM radio detectable 60 hz hum, broadcast in the range of 72 Mhz."

I am exceptionally drawn to the solution of searching for the origin of your abnormal reasoning. Modern visual recording devices situated in the current gaming entertainment industries does not exhibit detectable radioactive emittings.

Best regards of all sincerity,
NA

"I am exceptionally drawn to the solution of searching for the origin of your abnormal reasoning."

You're going to have to wait your turn in a very, very long line! :-)

Don