No Blackjack and Trespass.

Some Casino try to Be Nice, they would Ask you for FLAT BET.
some would say NO BLACKJACK.

Is it possible the casino will TRESPASS counter instead no BJ in the first time they catch you?? Not a big player. about 25-500.

what about the Indian Casino? Is it no Blackjack normally or just Trespass becasue of they have their Rule?

Casinos are private property. As long as no civil rights are violated, they can tolerate you, give you heat, politely tell you that you are too skilled for them and tell you that you are welcome to play any other game as they give you a dinner comp, or they can read you the trespass act on the spot.

Or they can even apply the Wonsilick Experience, especially if no one is looking and they have the right equipment.

Some places will trespass first time "offenders" and others will simply give you the "no more BJ" spiel. Even at your bet level.

A principle of criminal law is that the offender must have criminal intent in order to be guilty of a crime. Card-counting is NOT a crime. The casinos invite the public in their premises to gamble, eat, drink, shop and go to shows. Thus, someone who enters a casino to do any of the above is not a trespasser UNLESS he had been previously been told not to enter the premises. Therefore, a card counter gets at least one free bite at the apple. A card counter can be kicked out, figuratively, not literally, the first time he is caught, but the casino CANNOT have him prosecuted the first time. The only way that I can see a first time offender being prosecuted is if the casino has a sign reading "Card Counting is Prohibited." prominently posted at each entrance, just like a "No Trespassing" sign. Do any of the lawyers here have any opinions on this issue?

The only way that I can see a first time offender being prosecuted is if the casino has a sign reading "Card Counting is Prohibited." prominently posted at each entrance, just like a "No Trespassing" sign.

Of course, as has been said over and over on this site, card counting is not illegal.

But then, picking flowers, walking on the grass, and fishing are not illegal either. Let's say someone has a restaurant or tavern on river front property. If they put up signs that said "No Fishing" or "Do Not Pick the Flowers" or "Do Not Walk on the Grass", and a visitor violated these guidelines, I don't think the owner could have them arrested.

They could, however, advise them that they are not welcome on the property anymore, and if they return, trespassing charges will be filed.

So basically, I think the free bite at the apple still applies.

The defendant could simply claim that the betting and playing strategies were coincidence.

"Let's say someone has a restaurant or tavern on river front property. If they put up signs that said "No Fishing" or "Do Not Pick the Flowers" or "Do Not Walk on the Grass", and a visitor violated these guidelines, I don't think the owner could have them arrested."

That's true for taverns and restaurants. But if a casino made a rule that you couldn't walk on the grass, why then you could be arrested for that. Casino rules have the force of law.

ETF

Casino rules have the force of law.

Why would they be different from other businesses? I know all areas that have gaming have a legal organization called a gaming commission. But, what gives a casino special law making powers?

I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you. I even remember Rose & Loeb saying that a horse track can make up any kind of rule like not allowing a bettor to make a bet for any reason they want like wearing a paisley shirt or green tie.

Why would a track or casino be so powerful?

ET Fan can certainly speak for himself, but I read it as referring to the common corruption of police and other authorities by casinos, resulting in police often wrongfully behaving as if casino rules were laws.

Take NJ, for example. Smoking banned in every public place in the state except the casinos.

"Why would a track or casino be so powerful?"

Beats the %#$@! out of me, but they are. If you scroll down on Green Chip General, you'll see a thread between Bob L and me on the subject.

One example is past-posting. The casino decides when you can or can not place a bet. Maybe in some states this is spelled out by a gaming commission, I don't know. But in my state it varies from casino to casino. Yet, if you place a bet too late (eg. a "quadruple down") you can be arrested. In some states there are laws making past-posting a crime, but the actual crime is defined by the casinos, since they determine the deadline for when a bet is legal. There's simply case law that says casino rules have the force of law.

If you're new to blackjack, and truly didn't understand doubling down, you'd better hope the PC is in a good mood, or you could wind up in jail.

As far as that goes, gaming commissions are not generally elected bodies. Why can they make law?

I don't think any legislature passed law on the stutter cut, for which David Morse was convicted.

ETF

I believe David Morse was warned numerous times by the casino that they believed what he was doing was illegal. He didn't heed the warnings. It didn't come out of the blue.

Take NJ, for example. Smoking banned in every public place in the state except the casinos.

The above special treatment in favor of casinos may not last long. AC City Government seems to beat NJ State Government in the battle of smoking ban. The State allows smoking in casinos all the times, but now the City says no more smoking citywide & casinowide, effective "most likely" on 4/15/07. Click on the link for the full story.

http://www.topix.net/content/kri/1564598942284184148724554332430051939653

... that the casinos should be able to make law by issuing edicts?

I believe David Morse was warned numerous times by the casino that they believed what he was doing was illegal. He didn't heed the warnings. It didn't come out of the blue."

Casinos have also warned counters numerous times they believe counting is illegal. Guess we'd better all pack up and go home ...

ETF

The state always backs the casinos, it seems. I'm not saying it's right, I'm not saying it's wrong. I can't change it so I accept it. If someone wants to tilt at windmills and fight them, good luck. Or you can always go somewhere else to play and stay under the radar.

> So appaently you agree that the casinos should be able to make law by issuing edicts?

Of course not. It wasn't the casino that convicted him; it was the state. Before you say one is in the other's pocket, it may be true, but that is not germaine to who is making the law.

They can warn you all they want that counting is illegal, but it's not and their warnings won't make it so .. until they get the state to agree.

> So appaently you agree that the casinos should be able to make law by issuing edicts?

Of course not. It wasn't the casino that convicted him; it was the state. Before you say one is in the other's pocket, it may be true, but that is not germaine to who is making the law.

I don't think you're following the discussion. The state did NOT make a law about stutter cutting, to the best of my knowledge. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm glad to hear it. But regardless, the principle is clear that casinos have the power to make law.

As BobL said ... ah shoot! I guess it wouldn't be ethical to quote a green chip discussion on a free board.

Just think about the past-posting issue. It's very clear casinos make law, and the courts have given them that authority. There is nothing new about this.

ETF

Thanks. Glad to see it.

I don't think you're following the discussion. The state did NOT make a law about stutter cutting, to the best of my knowledge. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'm glad to hear it. But regardless, the principle is clear that casinos have the power to make law.

It seems true that casinos have the power to make law indirectly in their favor. However, I do agree with you that casinos did not force NJ CCC to illegalize the stutter cutting (nor the holecarding) per se. From I'd read from various sources, I learn that NJ CCC bans DM because DM searches and peeks at the 10 or ace card when he stutter-cuts the "loose shoes". Several casinos had videotaped the DM's slick cutting technique & accused him of peeking cards illegally. Based on the videotaping evidences, NJ CCC ruled in favor of casinos & blacklisted DM.

Personally I don't think DM's stutter-cutting is illegal. DM's peeking of the "loose-shoes" is an advantage play just like James Grosjean's peeking of holecards. It's casinos' job to teach their dealers to protect the cards at all times. If the dealer squeezes the shoe very tightly before DM does the cutting, there's no way DM can see 10 or ace card in the tighted shoes. Likewise, if a dealer does not flash sloppily his hole card, there's no way James Grosjean can see the dealer's holecard & makes money from casinos. Hmmm... I wonder why casinos succeed in banning DM, but fail in banning JG...Any idea why, guys?

>> I don't think you're following the discussion.

:) Doing my best.

>> The state did NOT make a law about stutter cutting, to the best of my knowledge.

Should I assume that's what BobL said? There is not much to be gained arguing the law with him.

Is 'stutter-cutting' a proper term? I don't recall hearing that term before but it's been a while. I thought the term was 'twisting.'

Carrying on however, to the best of my knowledge it was the NJ CCC that put an end to whatever DM was doing .. not the casino.

>> But regardless, the principle is clear that casinos have the power to make law.

I don't think it is clear at all. The casino asked to have DM barred for what they considered cheating. The Commission that the folks living in NJ gave the authority to hear/enforce matters such as these agreed.

> Personally I don't think DM's stutter-cutting is illegal.

Personally, I do. If you read some of the DM transcripts it is clear he just wasn't cutting in to a 'loose shoe.' I don't see it any different as spooking the hole card, which is illegal. JG seeing the dealer's flashed hole-card is a different matter entirely.

Just my opinion fellas.