Newbie Questions

Been working on some basic stategy, as well as card counting, and I'll be going to Vegas in a few weeks to put it to the test. I'm not very familiar at all with casinos, so I have a couple of questions.

1) When playing a multiple deck game, does the discard pile always remain in view? (I like to keep count of the number of decks by looking at the discard pile instead of the dealer's pile.)
2) I understand that card counting is not looked highly upon in Vegas/Nevada casinos. Do the casino employees watch the $5 players just as closely as the larger bettors? Bascially, if I'm shifting my bet around between $5-$30, am I just as likely to be suspected as a card counter?
3) What about tipping? If I'm going to sit at a table for an hour, is it acceptable to just tip when I get up to leave instead of throughout the entirety of my play? And, what defines a good tip in the casinos?

Been working on some basic stategy, as well as card counting, and I'll be going to Vegas in a few weeks to put it to the test. I'm not very familiar at all with casinos, so I have a couple of questions.

1) When playing a multiple deck game, does the discard pile always remain in view? (I like to keep count of the number of decks by looking at the discard pile instead of the dealer's pile.)

In nearly ever place, the discard pile is in place view.

2) I understand that card counting is not looked highly upon in Vegas/Nevada casinos. Do the casino employees watch the $5 players just as closely as the larger bettors? Bascially, if I'm shifting my bet around between $5-$30, am I just as likely to be suspected as a card counter?

If you are playing shoe games in the big casinos, you have nothing to fear at this level. The South Strip has many shoe games (S17 or H17, DAS, LS), but to find $5 shoes there, you'll have to play early hours on weekdays. Be sure to avoid playing when the true count falls below -1.

3) What about tipping? If I'm going to sit at a table for an hour, is it acceptable to just tip when I get up to leave instead of throughout the entirety of my play? And, what defines a good tip in the casinos?

First of all, you don't have to tip. I play at the same level you do and I will only tip if I have a huge (and I mean huge) win. Tipping can take a huge chunk out of your EV.

Most casinos allow you to see how many cards are in the discard tray. Some don't though, so you just have to estimate.

2) $5-$30 bets may sound like a lot to someone employed at McDonalds or Wal-Mart or something of the sorts, but in the casino, you won't draw any heat for such small wagers. Many people bet a lot more than that, yes, even on the 5 dollar tables. You'll see a person spreading $5 to $150 dollars. Of course he's most likely not counting, but most casinos will not even blink at $5-$30 action.

3) Tipping is a personal choice and you shouldn't be talked into OR out of it by anyone. Winning or losing really doesn't have much to do with it. If you get a dealer you like, it wouldn't hurt to fork over a couple of bucks. The way I like to do it is bet a dollar for the dealer and put a dollar on top of my bet so if I win it didn't really cost me anything, and if I lose, I chalk it up as a TWO dollar tip.

Everywhere I've ever played has the discard tray visible. One deviation to be aware of, if you go downtown, is that at the 2D game at the Fitz, they have an annoying procedure of burning about ten cards after the shuffle, so estimating pen takes an additional step. Pen there ranges from very mediocre to good, but for someone with limited mental capacity, such as myself, this tactic can be a minor annoyance.

Also, at single deck downtown, watch to see whether you can tell if the dealer is indeed dealing off the top of the deck. If you can't tell, you might want to leave and play elsewhere.

I have found that pre-screening your targets with CBJN will save a lot of time and wasted effort.

What about tipping? If I'm going to sit at a table for an hour, is it acceptable to just tip when I get up to leave instead of throughout the entirety of my play? And, what defines a good tip in the casinos?

With a max bet of only $30, you cannot afford to tip. My general tipping comments, which have been posted before:

One of the most frequently asked questions by newcomers concerns tipping the dealer.

My answer: DON�T TIP AT ALL

Others, who do believe that some tipping is necessary, generally will advise to tip very modestly. Remember that tips come directly from your bottom line.

Nowadays, almost all casinos force their dealers to pool their tips, usually on a 24-hour basis. This shameful system means that the rude, surly dealer who preferentially shuffles away good decks, loudly shouts �checks play�, and gives poor penetration, receives just as much of every dollar tipped, as does the dealer who you�d like to �reward.� There are still a handful of casinos in Reno whose dealers �go for their own,� but this practice is nearly extinct.

There are pros and cons to the entire tipping issue, and differences of opinion. Let's address various scenarios involving different types of players. You can determine which scenario best fits your situation.

For players who play short sessions and move around from casino to casino frequently (�hit and run� playing method), there is no reason to tip. This style of play is based on the casino not remembering you from session to session. Therefore, any perceived �advantage� you may gain from tipping is eradicated by the very fact that they don�t remember you next time, anyway.

Some believe that tipping will improve playing conditions, such as the dealer increasing penetration. While there are rare exceptions, this is usually a fallacy. Most dealers will not even make the connection between your occasional tip and better penetration. Asking for it outright and offering to tip in exchange for it borders on collusion with the dealer, which could get you and the dealer into serious legal trouble, if someone wanted to make an issue of it. Also, the dealer could mention your request to the pit, which would immediately mark you as a knowledgeable player, since the average ploppy doesn�t know anything about penetration and has no reason to care about it.

RED CHIP AND LOW GREEN CHIP PLAYERS, which covers the vast majority of new players, really cannot afford to tip much, if anything. It�s very easy to fall into the habit of tipping. At this level of play, it must be avoided, or a winner can easily turn into a loser.

Tipping just consumes too much of the profit derived from playing blackjack at the red chip or low green chip level. Even if you actually were able to get an extra round dealt because of the tip, the cost of the tip will frequently be more than the Expected Value of the hand. Let�s assume an advantage of 2% on the next hand, which would have been shuffled away without the tip. With a $50.00 bet, the Expected Value of the hand is about $1.00. If you tip $1.00, you�ve given away the entire Expected Value. What�s the point?

It may sound cheap, but just don�t do it. At the red or low green chip level, tipping as a form of �cover� is just too expensive. At this level, you can�t afford much �cover� at all, certainly not just giving away money.

GREEN CHIP PLAYERS, if you�re spreading 1-8, the $1.00 tip with your $200.00 max bet will look silly, and may insult and anger the dealer. Tipping more than $1.00 again may eliminate most of the Expected Value of the hand.

Many dealers feel that they�re �entitled� to tips, and to them, a small tip is worse than no tip at all. With no tip, they may just think you�re ignorant of tipping, which is just what you want them to think.

If you have to play at the same places often, maybe tip very modestly somewhere along the line, but avoid it as much as you can. When you do tip, it�s a good idea to do so when at least two dealers see the tip, such as at the time of a dealer change. It�s also good to have a pit critter see you tipping. Sometimes, though rarely, this can deflect �heat.�

Usually, a pleasant personality and polite demeanor at the tables will win you more �points� with dealers and pit staff than tipping. Remember that dealers have to put up with players whining when they lose, cursing, throwing cards, generally obnoxious drunken behavior, etc. Always being polite and pleasant, even in your losing sessions, will make you appreciated in your regular casinos.

When you move up to heavy green action or above, the tipping issue becomes more important, as most high-roller ploppies tip. When you reach that level of play, you will have to decide how tipping fits into your overall �act.� At that level of play, you will also need some �cover,� at which time tipping (modestly) may be helpful as a form of �cover.�

But for the new player, JUST DON�T DO IT.

Last time I had the misfortune (summer of 2004), they were using a shoe with a lid and an opaque discard rack.

Talk about paranoid!

Dog Hand

and poor penetration and crowded tables. I didn't even play
despite having paid the 5$ entry fee.

Doesn't mindplay tables hide the discards completely as they are stuck in a scanner after being picked up by the dealer, and the scanner is out of sight?

The Mindplay shoe is covered. However the discard "tray" is not covered and the cards are visible. The discards are stacked horizontally at an angle, as in a shoe.

What happened to you in your gambling career to make you bitter, at least seem so, on tipping. Something tells me it has little to do with EV because even professional writers suggest tipping, even at least minimally.

One point you mention is this...GREEN CHIP PLAYERS, if you�re spreading 1-8, the $1.00 tip with your $200.00 max bet will look silly, and may insult and anger the dealer. Tipping more than $1.00 again may eliminate most of the Expected Value of the hand.

A $1.00 bet does not look silly at all. Dealers get dollar tips all the time from every kind of betting range. I bet 200 dollars on a somewhat regular basis and if I'm going to tip I usually put a dollar on top of my bet and a dollar out for the dealers. If I win, I put the dollar I won out for the dealer again, and put the initial dollar back on top. This way, sometimes I'll get 9 or 10 hands in a row and the dealer is more than happy to make 20 bucks while I rake in a couple thousand. And it cost nothing more than a 2 dollar risk.

Now, that said, I know what EV is and what even a buck can mean is terms of EV per hour. I keep my tipping to a minimum but don't completely eradicate it.

I don't think I'm going to change your mind, considering all the arguing and stances I see happen on this site, and you'll probably respond with some more asinine and contrived reasons you can think up, but this goes beyond EV and more into personal feeling on the subject.

Player A asked player B: Do you tip the dealer?
B: No, I don't.
A: You should.
B: Why should I tip?
A: Do you tip the waitress in the restaurant?
B: Yes, I do.
A: That's the same. The waitress serves you the food and the dealer serves you the cards. So you should tip.
B: No, that's different. The waitress serves me something I want but the dealer often serves me something I don't want!

Although it's rare, some casinos do this as a deliberate policy to hinder counters.Either they do it as a general measure by turning the discard angle towards the backside or they do it as a specific measure against a known counter, e.g. placing a shield in front of the discard tray.
The problem with such measures is that it generally hinders the dealer much more than counters who would often knock his fingers while disposing the discards. The counter will often find a seat from where he can still see the discards. Or simply bend over to catch a glimpse of the discards for close decisions.
If you cannot see the discards at all, it might be advisable to use an unbalanced count like Red7 or KO where you don't need to know at which level of the deck you are.

Francis Salmon

I don�t agree with LV Bear on the tipping issue, and we have discussed this on various occasions on Green Chip. However, I do recognize that he has some point, particularly on the mathematics of tipping.

Here is something to consider: If you tip 10% of your EV, you lower your SCORE by about twice as much, by almost 20%. (The exact figure is 19%. It is 1-(90%)^2) Giving up 20% SCORE is a lot to give up.

By the way, this applies to any form of fixed expenses. If your expenses on a trip are 10% of the trip EV, then essentially the effective Trip score is reduced by almost 20%.

We were talking about the effects of a $1 tip. But you are actually tipping $2- (�I bet 200 dollars on a somewhat regular basis and if I'm going to tip I usually put a dollar on top of my bet and a dollar out for the dealers. If I win, I put the dollar I won out for the dealer again, and put the initial dollar back on top.� So already you have tipped twice as much as the Bear was talking about.
If you Max Bet is $200, you may have a SCORE in the ballpark of $50 an hour. Tipping $2 is 4%, which costs you 8% of the SCORE. If you only put these $2 out once an hour, that is the cost.

But is that all you do. Or do you repeat this several times in a one hour session. If so, then the cost adds up.

And I do agree with the Bear on this point. I do think if your in Vegas and you�re a green chip player making a number of $200 bets, then most LV dealer will be insulted that you only tip �$2�. That is at least my experience.

Now here is where I differ with the Bear Why is this Green/Red Chip play playing in Vegas. He/she has probably several hundred dollars in travel expenses to get there. I don�t think they are doing this to make money. Why is $300 in travel expenses acceptable, but $50 tips are not?

Low stakes players should be playing in their local area, where their trip expenses are minimized. In the local casinos, the player will become known. And players who never tip are remembered for not tipping.

If tipping 10% get you more than 20% longevity in you local casino, then you have come out ahead. I think it would.

Oh. Just by his name, I just assumed he was located in Vegas.

Also, right, I knew I tipped 2 bucks. I usually only do it intermittantly, but the dealers see the way I do it by recycling that dollar on top and they seem at least cordial about it. When I get even 3 or 4 in a row they see what I'm doing and realize that it could potentially turn into an unlimited amount, as long as they keep "giving" me winning cards, even though, it turns out only 2 or 3 in a row most of the time. It gives a sense of bigger money than what it actually is.

I don't know if it really matters, but I've never been kicked out of any casino yet and I've been counting for almost 8 years now. My bets range from 25 - 300 usually and I go somewhat regularly 3 or 4 times a month. I don't see how so many people are getting the boot with 30 dollar bets on this site.

The way I like to do it is bet a dollar for the dealer and put a dollar on top of my bet so if I win it didn't really cost me anything,

Do you really mean what you are saying?

...that most dealers seem to want a tip in the same color you are playing. If you are playing green chips they want a green and if you are playing black units they want a black. If you are betting 200 and tip a buck this will be viewed as more of an insult then not tipping at all. This is just my experience feel free to make your own decisions. SM

There is the old joke, told on this board a million times, but you're new so I'll repeat it, that the difference between a card counter and a canoe is that a canoe tips occasionally.

Seriously though, I'm guessing that, at these stakes, you are not playing to pay the rent. That being the case, my humble opinion is that an occasional (but rare - don't get carried away) tip when the dealer is pleasant and you're having a good time is a social courtesy. As has been discussed above, you don't want to insult the dealer by tipping a dollar when you are betting black ($100) chips, but a dollar is perfectly acceptable for red ($5) play. I wouldn't bother tipping as you are leaving - just put a dollar bet out for the dealer every once in a while and they will appreciate it and you.

Although you don't need to worry much about cover play, I like to put out my tips when it looks like I think the dealer has been good to me, like when I draw a 5 on a 16 hand, or I get an ace on a 10 double down and the dealer gets a 20 on their hand. Make a little show about thanking the dealer and putting out a tip and you look like you're depending on luck rather than skill.

I happen to agree with you. When I play green chips, I tip $5 once in a while when I am winning. That makes the game more enjoyable. I also think that if you are going to spend a few hundred dollars travelling to LV, the occasional tipping actually doesn't cost you that much. You would have to be up a few hundred dollars to make your trip profitable anyway. Besides, on my last trip by playing at the green chip table I earned $180 comp which is more than enough to pay the tip.

I am a dealer who "goes for his own". Also, I am a (very) amateur card counter. I understand the mathematics of tipping, and how it cuts into your EV, but you must also understand that tipping is how we dealers make our living. They pay me minimum wage, and we rely on people who are winning to "share the wealth". If you are losing, I do not mind not being tipped; to expect anything out of you would be insane. If, however, I am being friendly and personable, and you are making money at my table, a bet here and there would be expected. Not as a cover play, not to increase your luck, or any other such nonsense, but just as something that social animals like us humans do. We have to make a living, just like you do.

The problem is, I get carried away with my tipping, but mostly I'm just playing for fun. This isn't how I make my living, or supplement my income. I like the sport of it. So doing something insane like putting out a green chip as my bet, and a green chip for the dealer (they all go for their own around here) is par for the course. If I'm winning, I want them to win too. I can get comped food, or whatever, from the dealers and floormen that I know here.

My point is, it isn't all math. Besides making money, you're here for the thrill and the experience. I really don't believe that people can be so jaded through mathematics and EV that they can't put out a red chip on their big bets (I usually only tip when the count is up, so I'm not just throwing the money away) for the dealer.

Have fun, and tip those dealers :)

read previous posts on this subject?

Regardless, I'm going to comment, as something in your post triggered a memory gland or two. As a result, I'm going to cut you all (dealers) a little slack here. Why? One of my daughters, when she was in college, would work as a waitress. And of course, wait staff really do earn LESS (minimum wage), as opposed to many dealers...but I said I would be nice....so continuing...

She adopted this habit of extreme (IMO) overtipping while in resataurants and bars. Now I usually tip a minimum of 20%, and upwards (based on service etc.) but she as I said, took it to an extreme.

Now, this normally wouldn't be on my brain cells, but a very good friend (where we were reminiscing recently) also was a bartender for years when she was young, and she has this same habit. In fact, she said that almost everyone she knows, who has been in the food service industry develops this habit.

And I can see why. So it does make sense, on one level, that dealers would both tip more when they play, and thereby expect players to tip when they're dealing.

But....

They would still be WRONG. :-)

No service staff expects a tip for BAD service. At least the good ones. In fact, many high end restaurants will "comp" meals, when service or poorly prepared food is an issue.

Players, if they're lucky, and advantage players specifically, are sometimes lucky to ONLY lose, and not get TOSSED, or back-roomed.

I can see it now, Smith and Wollensky's serves some really bad steak, and for their efforts, they call the police and have you arrested for "disturbing the peace."

Dealers don't tip players when players sustain large losses. The casinos DO pay wages that are in effect, generated from player losses.

How many of you dealers ever GIVE BACK tip money to players when the player OVER TIPS? Don't all raise your hands at once.

I'll bet not one of you. Yes, Not a single dealer has EVER admonished a player or advised them that they are TIPPING TOO MUCH!

The day I see that happening, is the day I may reconsider my approach to tipping. And I'm one of the unfortunate fools (as I've been known to play a high stakes game now and then) who tips a little more than I should specifically due to assisting my longevity quotient.

Here's some advice. Read all the posts you can regarding this subject, we all can't be wrong.

cheers
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