My experience @ MGM Grand today... AP's What do you make of this?

I walk in the MGM Grand this evening and make my way to the BJ tables. Place is pretty crowded for a Tuesday night. I'm standing behind a BJ table and so is another guy (I'm wearing a polo shirt and khakis, he's wearing a full suit and glasses), we watch (I backcount) the shoe finish. Not an awful table: 6D, H17, DAS, 3:2, LS. I think the other guy standing behind the table with me may have been wonging because several times during favorable counts he pulled out his cash and hesitated to sit down...then continued to stand there. So after the shoe finishes he sits down, I continue to stay standing to do some more backcounting.

At this point 4 out of 6 spots are taken at this table, and I'm enjoying backcounting. I'm not being obvious, I'm even looking away during payouts and 1st cards dealt. I get excited for the players' naturals and share their dissatisfaction when the dealer wins. Additionally, did I mention the casino is pretty crowded? I'm not the only guy happily watching ongoing games...

So the dealer deals the first round. Everyone busts. RC is -7. He then stops what he's doing, points to me and demands my ID. I said, "Say again?" He says, "I need your ID you must be 21 to be on the casino floor." This is laughable, at best, as I appear well above 21... I haven't been carded in a long long time.

Here I do something perhaps I shouldn't have. I flash my ID to him saying, "No problem, there ya go. See I'm well over 21." He doesn't even look at it and says, "No, lay it down on the felt I need to give it to the pit boss." Who he then motions for. I said, "No way, I'm not surrendering my ID. Look, see, I'm well over 21." He then starts calling his bosses over to the table, and meanwhile the players are like WTF this guy is watching our game why are you carding him.

I tuck my ID back into my wallet (the dealer never even looked at it) and casually walk out the exit.

Questions for experienced AP Players:

1. What do you make of this? Ever happened to you?

2. How did I handle it? Good/Bad? What would you do? (Tell that

guy to F off and keep backcounting?)

3. Should I go back there early tomorrow morning and crush the $hit

out of that table? I believe I can. :) They'll probably demand

ID to cash me out though...

... is that in spite of what you said re: your stealthiness, the dealer had "made you" as a back-counter. Perhaps recalling your face from another day.

I think that he wanted to harass you a little in order to "send a message" that your action was not wanted. His motivation was solely to impress his Pit Boss.

Beware of that dealer. Remember his name and face.

He is looking to be promoted and will readily rat out Card Counters at his table.

I agree with what Flash said-what a screwball dealer. I think you handled it perfectly. Isn't it amazing what a casino can get some people to do for $8.00 an hour?

Casinos pay their dealers at least minimum wage. Most pay more. M.G.M. properties pay $7.75 BUT that is before their tokes are added in.

At the very best casinos like Wynn, M.G.M. Grand, etc. dealers make an additional share of the tokes of around $40 / hr.

At a typical casino the hourly "toke rate" is still more than 1/2 that.

In "sawdust joints" about $12 - $15 per hr. in tokes is more likely.

So ... at the casino mentioned in the post above the dealer is probably earning close to $50 per hour !

Imagine that !

Now for the "kicker"

The Cocktail Waitresses and Valet Car Parkers and Waiters (at the better joints) make MORE by far !

do crush the table!!!

but at the typical casinos outside of Vegas I sure wouldn't want to depend on my tokes to make a living. at our local indian casino my guess is that the toke rate is not much at all.

I agree that Flash's conclusion might be correct but you just do not have enough information to be sure. So go back on another shift and crush them.

Other things can be going on. That dealer may have failed to call the pit over earlier when an under-aged player sat down or was hanging around the table and as they do with dealers, he got threatened with a suspension.

I had an instance, with a friendly dealer, where in a joint where they do not get big action too often, I got both a favorable count and cards and was having a shoe that attracted a bunch of onlookers.
A quick eye movement from the dealer let me know that if I wished he would do something that would move the onlookers. Perhaps this dealer thought or had a player that was uncomfortable with someone looking over their shoulders.

Finally, the dealer is not permitted to take anything from your hand. If you are passing your ID to him or making a buy in, whatever it is it must be placed on the table and then the dealer can touch it. This is simple house procedure, as they not only do not trust you, they do not trust their dealers. Once put on the table though, you should never permit it to be moved out of your sight. In my case I would refuse to show ID when backcounting because I am over 60, but if someone in the casino thinks you might be under 21, the casino can face a large fine just for letting you hang around, so surrendering your ID for just a pit look is not unusual.

Since the MGM reduced the number of S-17 tables, I think the dealers that work the remaining shoe ones and that only double deck table in the back are sharper than the average dealer. I am sure the dealer on their sole S-17 double deck table made me by the knowing look on her face when I raised my bet and it was combined with some good hands, and then I received that cell phone call on another shuffle after all the big cards came out early. I toked her after making a little more money on another nice stack and then left and saw that "knowing" smile again. But this is a limited area where more money is bet and they can concentrate better dealers and pits, along with more attention from the eye.

Often I see dealers carding onlookers who look anywhere in their 20's.

I also sense that dealers do not like onlookers. Actually I don't like it either when someone stands too close for too long; they could be surveillance. Sometimes, I would even ask them if they would like to sit down.

One time a dealer asked an onlooker to step back. She said that if he was any closer he would be sitting on our laps.

Yes some dealers make a decent living, but as you stated, that is including tokes. So you are correct in saying that the casino is paying the snitch $8.

The pit, players and dealers tend not to like those milling around their games while not playing, roaming around a casino looking for a game to enter is just to obvious. The pit is too hip to the play and the players, especially the good ones do not want you to enter and fear counter catchers. Dealers just follow the orders of their supervisors. Do not really have any recommendations except find a game where you can sit down and play continuously with positive e.v.

You should backcount while passing by and while watching an adjacent table. You shouldn't backcount the end of a shoe and then stand there backcounting the next one until it gets ripe. The norm would be to wait for the shuffle as to not change the flow and then sit down at the shuffle (wait to see the cut card placement if you're playing all). So, time the shuffle, walk by on the first round and count it, go to the adjacent table to see if the dealer is 'hot', count round 2 at the table you just passed and if it looks good, just plow in and take a seat. Why are you standing around watching?

When you walked out of the casino, they may have figuree you were under 21, but I doubt they'll remember you for long. Unless, you wear your same counter outfit. Polo and khakis!? Were you wearing glasses and an cap with an Ivy League logo? You need to wear some "counterflage" and stop gauking.

By showing your id and hanging there for a few minutes gave the dealer extra time to id you, so he may recognize you in the future. You did good to hang on to your id. You could have screwed up your face a bit, chuckled and walked away.

Good luck.