Does Bootlegger do the taxes for mathboy?
One would think he does from the claims he makes.
Or else, maybe, just a case of "Hero Worship'?
"If you play at high limits at all, saying that you should not find legal ways to avoid being CTR'ed is absurd. You would be getting a small, small fraction of your EV." .. MathBoy
Please explain how being CTR'ed impacts your EV. I can only think of two ways; 1) it might drive your income tax bill to an all time high, or 2) it might cause you to be known (or known better) to your friendly casino operator.
Which did you have in mind; or something else I'm missing?
Please explain how being CTR'ed impacts your EV. I can only think of two ways; 1) it might drive your income tax bill to an all time high, or 2) it might cause you to be known (or known better) to your friendly casino operator.
Which did you have in mind; or something else I'm missing?
#2 is big. It is a pain in the ass for them as well as us. Many square gamblers don't want to have the CTR filled out because they don't want the government tracking them. When some random guy goes over $9K, you can see the start to sweat. If the guy refuses the CTR request, they may lose a good customer.
Getting a CTR does not necessarily raise your tax bill. How does losing money (or buying in) increase your taxes?
Getting CTR'ed hurts your EV because if you don't want to give them your SS# and if you want to play big stakes, you can't put in a ton of hours without hitting the $10K threshold. Putting in less hours means less EV. For an extreme example, say you have a $5K max bet. If you have no strategies for dealing with CTR's, you probably won't be able to make it through one hot shoe. DD' has said a few times that the CTR law is the biggest deterrent to high stakes play ever implemented.
Math Boy
Never having a $10,000 cash out leaves me ignorant to some degree in this area.
So, I'm on a hot shoe, got $5K out, and BJ.
Can I not just color up, pick up the chips .. and wander off .. to my room .. or the craps table!?
I thought the CTR problem didn't materialize until I started trading chips for greenbacks?
Thanks.
I don't do Math Boy's taxes and Math Boy is not my "hero." He is a friend, however, and I know him to be a high stakes player.
I have no stake in the CTR debate, and I'm not a high stakes player, so it is not an issue with which I am particularly familiar. I also have nothing against either Kevin Blackwood or John May. I just didn't like what I saw as an attack on Math Boy, that's all.
Just as an FYI, my heroes are not gamblers or advantage players in any form.
The casino is under an obligation to attempt to get CTR information when you have won $10,000 or have $10,000 in chips sitting in front of you. You can just pick up your chips and walk off, but they will probably make a note of it, and be even more vigilant when you try to cash in even a portion of it, attempt to continue to gamble, or attempt to buy in at another time. In other words, once the requirement for a CTR is hit, ($10,000 cash transaction, or the obvious accumulation of $10,000 in chips), unless you give them the info you are toast.
Also, the discussion of avoiding CTRs, advising others of avoiding CTRs, or even thinking of avoiding CTRs (don't know how they prove that one, but it is there) is illegal and carries about the same penality as actually doing the dirty deed.
But you act like avoiding CTR's skillfully is super secretive and takes years of high stakes play to learn. While in fact, if you want to avoid CTRs all you have to realize is that you need extra chips. So you either buy chips from other players, or you start a collection at your favorite casino. After all, some vegas high stakes pros have part of their bankroll in chips. Of course there is more to CTRs, but avoiding them mainly requires chip collection. How secretive is that?!
I am unfamiliar with your playing history. Are you a high stakes player? When you have accumulated $10K in chips in front of you, have you been asked for your SSN for a CTR? Or have you been asked for your SSN for the CTR when you cashed over 10K in chips at the cage? Because I have never been asked for my SSN just because I had over $10K in chips. I recall recently I had over $25K in chips, and still they didn't care about the CTR. Where are you getting your information from?
"Also, the discussion of avoiding CTRs, advising others of avoiding CTRs, or even thinking of avoiding CTRs (don't know how they prove that one, but it is there) is illegal and carries about the same penality as actually doing the dirty deed."
That's the whole point. There are legal ways to avoid CTR's. Your comments are way off-base.
Regards,
MF
The ways around triggering CTR's are numerous and may be obvious to us. Most methods are not very deep. But they are not necessarily obvious to casinos. There are a lot of things that we consider obvious but would not think of them quickly if we hadn't heard the idea before.
I think there are basically two ways to get a CTR in a casino. Buy in for $10K in chips or high denomination coins. Or receive $10K in cash from the casino. This counts payouts from W2-G's when playing slots. If you have $10K in chips in front of you the casino is not going to do anything. CTR stands for Cash Transaction Report.
Math Boy
Yes, I have had games held up after amassing 10k wins by some yokel with a clipboard wanting information. Maybe they were just jumping the gun on getting info for a CTR, or maybe this was just a form of heat, since these were times I was playing without player's cards.
Don't know, but I have also seen craps games stopped with 10k winners in MO, but this might have been due to State Laws also.
As far as "There are legal ways to avoid CTR's." Read the Law. If your INTENT is to avoid CTRs, then the sum of your legal actions are actually illegal. Of course, once again, how they can prove INTENT behind a series of normal innocent actions is a different story.
I guess that is why I titled the post "legally" maybe "technically" would be a better term.
Hey, if there was somehow an offer on the table for me to stop playing BJ for ever if I was handed 24K, I might just take the deal. Sure, I can make a lot more than that over time on the tables but I'd seriously consider it. As for 24K and getting barred, certainly! I'd take that deal ever day any day.
It does seem wierd they would post the pic where the players could see it though. ????
Stealth Bomber
you can have a billion in chips in front of you and CTR is not required because chips aren't cash. CTR's are for currency transactions and chips aren't currency. CTR's are triggered when you present >10K at cage to cash or buy-in at table >10K in same business day (whatever that is for that casino).
Big problem for high stakes play is when losing in positive shoe and approaching 10K in total buy-ins. You wind up with many $9,900 session losses. CTR's basically create a $9900 stop loss for many high stakes players (and not just pro players...but high rolling people who just don't want the government notified of their gambling habits.)
Also, the discussion of avoiding CTRs, advising others of avoiding CTRs, or even thinking of avoiding CTRs (don't know how they prove that one, but it is there) is illegal and carries about the same penality as actually doing the dirty deed.
No prosecution can take place on the basis of discussion or thought. This would not get to court. Were any such law ever actually passed on CTR's or anything else, the courts would throw it out.
I have some expertise in the CTR area, and I am not just talking about high stakes advantage play.
never mentioned that he was a player at this table. Maybe he got to see the picture because he was on the other side of the felt.
It wouldn't surprise me if he was trolling for information to ID the guy and get some psychological clues into the AP mentality. If this is true you certainly have appeased his curiosity.
Just one man's opinion.... I could be wrong.
"CTR stands for Cash Transaction Report."
It's Currency Transaction Report. But, your point remains that they're triggered by cash transactions.
Regards,
MF
He has studied the game and found ways to glean opportunities that most of us garden-variety card counters don't even think about. He is playing high-stakes on a regular basis, in a variety of games. -Bootlegger
Let's agree for now that Math Boy is indeed a high stakes player. However, that fact alone wouldn't make him the only expert in high stakes and thus have a monopoly of opinions in high stakes activities. Secondly, I objective to his approach by unilaterally acting as the BJ21 Police on this board.
So my question to you is do you agree with Math Boy's logic / argument that he presented earlier (emphasis are my):
"If no one who disagrees with Kevin ever posts, his posts are seen to be correct by consensus. I consider it a duty to the blackjack community to point out when I disagree with him." Math Boy.
I tend to believe this is an open forum and that people are intelligent and can form their own opinions on the various views expressed. I completely disagree with his view that Kevin's posts are correct by "consensus" because no one disagreed with Kevin. Firstly, where and when was the "consensus" formed? Secondly, even if someone did disagree with Kevin, it doesn't preclude the "consensus" from agreeing with Kevin nonetheless.
Bootlegger, while I admire your loyalty for speaking about Math Boy's competence as a high stakes player, the bigger issue is Math Boy's nasty disposition coupled with his faulty logic.
Regards,
-F
I don�t think it is good practice to discuss whether or not a certain individual is a counter. But since this thread has gone on for a long time as it is, I think I should add a few comments.
First, just because the pit thinks he is a counter doesn�t mean hs is. There are casinos which will suspect any big winner of counting. I have seen utter ploppies half-shoed, simply because they were winning.
Second, I do not agree with the reasoning advanced by you or by Mr Blackwood to suggest that he is not a counter. I am not saying he is a counter, I am saying those arguments are not adequate.
Third, for the record, there are casino who are not subject to the CTR law. Small casinos are not covered. There is a technical definitions of �small�, which I am not sure of . I believe that one of the casinos that I have played in falls into that category.
I don�t feel that this is highly relevant to the discussion, but it is possible that this casino is exempt.
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