LV Hilton-Reason for Mindplay?

I was recently at the LV Hilton and saw that all the blackjack tables in the main pit are now mindplay tables. The second pit area which still has a few non mindplay tables left is closed except for the busiest times.

I stopped to play a few hands and to make some type of negative comment about the mindplay to the other players at the table, but the dealer beat me to it.

I asked him why there was so many mindplay tables now. His answer was that since the LV Hilton was being sold, the old(current) owners had put them in to make it easier to move their best players to their other properties on the strip.

Sounds like a good reason to me.

It made even more sense to me when I got home. For the last 5 or 6 years I have received offers in the mail from the LV Hilton on almost a weekly basis, but never received any from the Paris or Ballys. I haven't played in either Paris or Ballys for 3 or 4 years. But today I received an offer from Paris/Ballys for three free nights and an offer from LV Hilton that for $199 I could receive three nights and a concert.

Since I refuse to play the mindplay tables, (except for a few hands to agitate the pit) guess where I will be staying on my nest trip?

What is mindplay? Please explain.

It is a computer used by a casino to count cards and, in unethical caisnos can be used to instruct the dealer to shuffle when the count favors the players. It uses marked cards, and knows the sequence of the cards to be dealt. For now, its use is confined to Eldorado in Reno, Las Vegas Hilton, and Crystal Bay Club in Lake Tahoe.

Park Place Entertainment has sold the LV Hilton and ownership will transfer sometime this summer. In the meantime PPE is attempting to move the players to their other properties on the strip. (ie Paris, Ballys, Caesars and Flamingo).

PPE tried to do this to another buyer a few years ago and that potential buyer backed out of the deal after they found out what PPE was up to.

Thanks for the info LVBear.
Last year I played on Mindplay at LV Hilton for a bit just to
check it out, and to try and figure out how it works.

I assumed it read the front of the cards and didn't know it used
marked card backs. If the backs are marked isn't there some danger
of players learning to read them and possibly reading the dealer's
hole card? And I thought marked card backs were illegal in some
jurisdictions -- I guess not Nevada?

Also, I believe that in addition to counting cards the machine actually
measures each player's bet, with a laser or some type of beam sensor
that reads the stripes on the sides of the chips. Regarding this aspect,
I don't know but I suspect the machine has a significant error rate
and there may be ways to foil it ... hmmm, I was going to list possible
ways and then thought better of it for a public board ... but anyone
know about this aspect of the robo-boss?

Wow, I just re-read LVBear's message and registered that you said
"knows the sequence of the cards to be dealt".

Now that is troubling. As I recall, the machine does slant an unusual
amount down the the exit from the shoe. I thought it was a quirk of
design, but that could be to spread out
the cards so the machine can read not only the next card but more
behind it!

Sorry about multiple messages on this.
I did some web research in response to my own questions (should have
done that first), and found the following press release about
a Mindplay acquisition and roll-out.

http://www.alliancegaming.com/index.html/SCN/news/DYNS/02_19_04

LVBear, you wrote:
"It is a computer used by a casino to count cards and, in unethical caisnos can be used to instruct the dealer to shuffle when the count favors the players. It uses marked cards, and knows the sequence of the cards to be dealt. For now, its use is confined to Eldorado in Reno, Las Vegas Hilton, and Crystal Bay Club in Lake Tahoe."

This is consistent with my understanding of this device and with the description of this device on the Mindplay web site. However, since it "knows the sequence of the cards to be dealt" shouldn't we be more concerned about preferential shuffling based on perfect knowledge of the upcoming cards. This is different than pref shuffling when the count favors the player.

For (a simple) example, say that there are two players. First base wagers $10 and Third base wagers $10,000. The table knows that first base will be dealt a Blackjack and that third base will be dealt a hard 16 vs dealer 18. The table also knows that if third base hits then he will bust. In this case it would "green light" the dealer to deal one more hand. However, if the player bets were reversed, then it displays a red light for the dealer to shuffle.

Of course, this is illegal, not just unethical, but since the casino is already getting away with breaking the law by using a device at a table game, I don't see why the Nevada authorities would have a problem with extending casino cheating just a little bit farther. After all, we should all be paying a "fair price" for the entertainment that the casino is providing, shouldn't we???

Coug Fan:
That is just the sort of "troubling" scenario I was getting at,
IF Mindplay does know the SEQUENCE OF CARDS TO BE DEALT -- that's hugely
worse than just knowing cards that came out of the shoe (which overhead
cameras can do too, except for dealer hole card).

According to this interview http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,60049,00.html
"regulators have asked the casinos to be careful how they use MindPlay"
-- how thoughtful of the nice regulators.

But I'm not completely clear that the machine does identify the cards
to be dealt, and if it does what it's error rate would be (it's a
mechanical technology -- there is some nonzero error rate).

The dealer places the cards in a hole in the table where they are shuffled. My understanding is that the shuffling device also records the exact order of the cards (they are placed back in the hole after the cut). The purported reason for this is so that the casino can verify the dealer is not dealing seconds. The other (less ethical) reason is very obvious.

Of course, this is illegal, not just unethical, but since the casino is already getting away with breaking the law by using a device at a table game

I don't think it is illegal. I started a thread a few years back about the possibility of a 100% pen single-deck game where the dealer could know whether the last card/s were high or low, and deal it as first card accordingly, putting the player at a huge disadvantage, and it was generally agreed that this was simply a more advanced form of preferential shuffling.

Regarding Mindplay, I would have thought an interesting angle would be to point out to the casinos that they are exponentially increasing their chances of getting fleeced from the inside. This game is effectively a cooler without the need for a switch. The potential losses from a single coup could exceed the losses from years worth of card counting.

I think the Mindplay tables are a clear violation of the Nevada device law, which is different than your example of a 100% pen game, presuming that no illegal device is used by the house when they are dealing to 100% pen. I believe that it is illegal to possess such a device within a Nevada casino even if you do not use it, so technically they are in violation even if they do not use it in the manner that I described.

Interesting point re: the inside job angle. I hadn't thought of that. Of course, if a player (other than the casino) was to use the same Mindplay device for their benefit (against the casino), then the casino would clearly claim that player was cheating. The premise seems to be that cheating is only applicable when the house is at a disadvantage.

It would be an interesting case if this were to happen. The device law should not be applicable since the patron is using a device (Mindplay table) that the casino supplied in order to play the game, and which the casino is actively using to defeat players who might have an advantage. The statute about using information that is not available to all other players would also not seem to be applicable if it was a heads-up game since the only other player (the house) also has the same information, although they may choose not to use it.

They could probably still bust the player for using a communication device since this would probably require a team effort.

Remember the movie "Rob-Cop I"? They are up in the Board Room, and
one wimpy-looking Board member is chosen to demonstrate the new
"Robo-Cop" machine. He stands haplessly and points a gun at the
RoboCop and when RoboCop says "drop the weapon or I'll shoot", wimpy
Board member drops the gun and puts hands up. Robo-Cop is unregistered
and continues warnings as wimpy board member runs franticly in circles.
Then Robo-Cop repeatedly blasts him to bits ... in the elevator on the
way down, the Robo-Cop software designer says to his boss, "It's just
a glitch... too bad about Bill but that's life in the big city ...
we'll have the glitch fixed before you know it..."

If this ROBO-PIT-CRITTER really is trying to read the cards before they
are dealt, first it must be massively illegal and second it WILL make
mistakes, as will the so-called bet-recognition capability. The whole
thing is worse than questionable from any perspective.

AND MOST RELEVENTTLY to the general player, the sort of pref-shuffling
cheating scenario described earlier applies to ALL PLAYERS whom might
make a big bet, not only to advantqage players.

These Robo-Monster-Critters should be dealt with by serious
fair-minded regulators. And besides, intelligent casino executives
should realize the uncetainties and risks introduced may be much larger
than first blush.

destroy the thing? One of the ways casino execs might be viewing mind play is that it will make a percentage of pit critters obsolete. Since the machine is evaluating players for counting and comps and recording bet amounts, it probably can order fills also. So how many pit personel can be fired? Will the new pit have one person for markers and a few other tasks, and another with a screw driver?
If I worked in a pit crew I would be quietly trying to do this thing in. It would be ironic, but we both have something at stake here.

... serious fair-minded regulators ... intelligent casino executives

These appear to be in short supply.

for just using our brains, nevermind using a device!!!

I think the Mindplay tables are a clear violation of the Nevada device law, which is different than your example of a 100% pen game, presuming that no illegal device is used by the house when they are dealing to 100% pen.

Yes, I agree the use of a device itself clearly breaks the law, I was referring only to the use of the device for sequence prediction.

They could probably still bust the player for using a communication device since this would probably require a team effort.

I can think of a few ways round that. In addition, I am not sure the casinos would risk a test case with such a legal minefield. They run shy of a test case for spooking for example, which to my mind is an technique the courts are more likely to rule against than Mindplay.

Really, I would not want to expose myself to such huge liabilities by using this device were I a casino manager. Even if you could get the money back through the courts, thats a far from ideal solution-you may have to pay hefty legal expenses whilst gaining acres of bad publicity in the relevant media.

Coug,

When I played against the mind play machine, there were several specific steps the dealer utilized in using the machine which varied significantly from a normal single deck table. Each of these procedures slowed the game down significantly. The dealer had to manually enter prior to each round the number of spots being played, by which players, and the amount bet on each spot. After completion of a round, the discards were placed into the special slot in the table where they were READ (scanned) by the Mindplay machine. The dealer had to repeatedly massage these discards in the hole until the machine indicated by LCD indicator light that it was okay to continue. Then the next round was initiated with the same sequence of dealer input on individual players. During the short time I played the machine the indicator light was relied on absolutely by the dealer to signal a shuffle, and in my opinion it used a preferential shuffle. It is a simple matter to program the machine to instruct the dealer to shuffle, using various criteria favorable to the house. Remember also the dealer did not deal another round until after entering the number and size of bets placed.

I only played that one time. I will play it again, and report later.

slim

Slim
Are you saying that if you were playing heads up or perhaps one other player and after two rounds and perhaps 18 cards were used, with few faces or aces coming out, they would shuffle 2/3 of the deck? If in the same situation, many high cards came out, they would not shuffle? Forgetting counters for a moment, every player has a an advantage in a positive deck , so that to me is definately using a device to cheat.