is this a terrible idea?

Before i get into mky question being this is the first time ive posted a question on here I figure it makes sense if I giove a little background on my situation.

Im 21 in college and play baseball for school leaving it difficult for me to get a decent part time job and Ive always been great with numbers and find blackjack and probabilty fasinating.So whole I play bj only to make money I dont view it as a chore.

I had a 4,000 dollar br, have made 27 trips to ac and am up about 1400 dollars overall playing about 12 hours each trip. At oner point i staered out 16-3, since going 306 and losing 2200 on those 9 trips, my low point being 2 40 dollar hands that turned into 440, and losing 5 twnties and a 19 to a 21 off of a 6 showing. Hurts but Im sure that wont be the worst.

I use the high low and inderstand that bad swings happen. I can count in my sleep after much practice and have about 80 indices including the ill 18 memorized.

My question is this I have a job lined up that i start in November - I graduate in May-
How bad of an idea is it to take out a 10,000 dollar loan purely for bj and spread 10-100 with some trips in AC?

Has anyone done anything similar to this?

Thanx in advance for any input.

First of all, how are you going to get a bank to give you a loan for blackjack?
If you do decide to play this summer with a big bankroll, you should look for better games that those available in AC.
And if you can get a loan, you'll have to take into account the cost of the interest and subtract that from your expected winnings. This means it's not a good idea to max out your credit card for blackjack money.

> I had a 4,000 dollar br, have made 27 trips to ac and am up about 1400 dollars overall...<

If I understand your post correctly, it means you now have about $5400, which is an adequate bankroll for the $5 2D games you can find in a few places on the Gulf Coast.

Get a few thousand up from that, and you'll be adequate for the $10 games you can find on the coast, in Philadelphia, Natchez, Vicksburg, and up in Tunica/Robinsonville.

A few thousand above that, you'll be ready for the good $25 2D games to be found all over Louisiana and Mississippi.

Once you've played those good Deep South games, you'll never want to go to A.C. again; and won't be all that keen even to go to Vegas.

But do NOT take out a loan to play BJ. That will put you behind before you ever start, and put even more pressure and stress on you in what is a very high-pressure and high-stress endeavor to start with.

Take your BR and go in search of better games, who knows with a bit of luck SD could be on your side and you will end up with 10k :)

Whatever you decide try and find better games than in AC if your time allows it.

Based upon your number of trips, hours and the amount you are up, you are perhaps playing a profitable game but at $4 and change per hour less whatever expenses you have, it brings up another possibility in my mind. If you expenses for travel and food on your trips are say $2 per hour, you are netting about $2 per hour but of course, you might be having fun also. You now have a 5,400 bankroll, which is solid at the $5 level. Why not get a job that could pay some expenses and increase your bankroll if you want for the summer, and play on your free time. I do not know if there are any better games than AC close to you, but borrowing 10G's puts you in a hole and then traveling hundreds of miles to find a good game at red chip level puts your expenses at a level hard to re coup.
Also because of the variance of blackjack, it is concievable that you could borrow that money and then run into 3 or 4 horrible sessions in a row and really have a hole to pull yourself out of.

thanks for all of the advice

ac really is a shithole and i already cant use my name in ballys or the hilton ( which has the only decent game in town) anymore which is a joke considering im not a real threat yet

I have learned a great deal in the last 3 months or so about everything that goes with counting and Im sure this experience will help me a great deal when i go to real casinos

Where in Philly are there decent games?

because your risk of ruin without a square job on the side is 100% unless you re-invest all of your winnings back into your bankroll. A $10,000 bankroll cannot sustain any drain from expenses. Check out Mathboy's Archived green chip post on "Long Term Risk of Ruin".

If had a square job on the side that paid all of your expenses it would be a better idea to take extra money left over and save it up for a shot every other month and hope for a big positive flux on one of the shots.

You really need 40K or so before you can start to think about playing fulltime and having enough money to pay personal expenses and not go broke due to the drain. Remember all risk of ruin figures assume 100% reinvestment of winnings into the bankroll. Anytime you pay yourself from your winnings you increase your level of risk.

Actually, being a student it is quite easy to come up with large sums of cash quite easily through the use of student loans. Granted, the funds were not originally meant to be used for BJ, but the govt doesnt know that and neither do the lendors:) Undergrad students cannot borrow much more then their tuition (unless they are on grant or scholorship) however grad students can borrow almost 19K a year.

To give an example, I am just starting my second masters degree (partially because I want to, and partially for the bankroll). I can borrow 18.5K per year as a grad student. My tuition is going to cost $5,500, my books another $500 or so, and then another $500 in "lending fees". I am going to get a reimbursement for 12K per year of grad school (it should take me two years to finish up.) The only pain in the butt is usually the schools reimburse in two equal installments spread evenly throughout the year, meaning I cannot play to my full roll until I get both payments, but that is a minor inconvenience. The real beauty of all of this, half of the 18.5K is subsidised, meaning I pay no interest on my DEFERED payments until six months after I fall below full time enrollment. The other half, I can roll into the rest of my consolidated student loans paying a lean 2.75% interest for 30 yrs. Thats better then a mortgage. I guess it was a good thing my degrees are in Finance, finally some real world application for all this useless knowledge:) Oh and for those of you may be questioning all of the large sums of interest I am going to be paying for 30 yrs, well its about the same as a mortgage, no penalty for early payment and I can make a much greater return on my investment in blackjack then I ever possibly could in real estate. I do not sell student loans by the way, its just a well kept secret Ive managed to exploit. (Student loans are great for consolidating debt or purchasing a house as well, since the rates are so damn low)Since I am near the max I can borrow lifetime anyway, (I figure I have enough for one more degree if I need it, or want it) I may as well spread some of my joy:) Best of luck to everybody..

D

I figured the interest from a student loan was pretty minor overall

I still may end up going for my masters but Im not 100% sure

My main problem is I live in New York City and the games suck in AC

It certainly makes me less than enthusiastic to pay my taxes two days from now, while knowing how you are exploiting the system and using our tax dollars to build your blackjack bankroll, rather than using the funds for the intended purpose of the student loan program which was to help students further their educations. The CEO's at Worldcom or Tyco also left the American Taxpayer holding the bag for their harmless self indulgence.

You want to play blackjack, get a job to fund it!!

You can't blame anyone for legally taking advantage of the rules that are in place.

"The only pain in the butt is usually the schools reimburse in two equal installments spread evenly throughout the year, meaning I cannot play to my full roll until I get both payments ..."

Why not?

If you are locked in on this course of action, and you know full well that both installments are in fact coming, and you in fact intend to use these funds as a bank, then I would design my min/max, bet ramps, ROR, etc based on the full amount of the pool even though only half is in hand now. I believe you are shorting yourself if you don't. Think of it along the lines of a 'lifetime bank.'

BTW, the day I start borrowing money to gamble with, even if it is deferred and carries a low interest rate, is the day I hope somebody comes to set me straight.

Add'ly, I agree with Cardkountr.

"You can't blame anyone for legally taking advantage of the rules that are in place"

If he's legally taking advantage of the rules in place as you say, then let him disclose on the student loan application what he intends to use the funds for and see if they grant the loan.

Ok first lets clear a few things up. The only thing your tax dollars pay is the subsidy for the interest expense while I am in school. This is interest on about half the loan (think of it as the half that is expensed for ACTUAL school usage if it makes you feel any better). The ACTUAL money borowed is no longer lent by the government, but rather through private lenders such as Citibank etc. These funds are guaranteed by the government, meaning if I dont pay the government will, and then come after my ass. It is not cheating you, since you have the option to do the same thing. My tax dollars pay for TONS of programs that I dont actually use and actually have less of an ability to take advantage of then you do for this. (I have no kids in school, yet where do a large chunk of my property taxes go? If you want to get mad at anybody for overexpense of your tax dollars, write a letter about welfare reform, but leave me the hell alone. What I proposed is legal, and no less ethical then any damn tax loophole that MOST upperclass have the ability to exploit, and yet I do not.)

As to Sun's post about borrowing to "play" blackjack, I guess thats the difference between you and me. I follow Wong's description of an advantage player as being an investor, not a player. I am investing in blackjack and having that investment leveredged with an extremely low interest rate is smart business. (Forgive me while my Finance education comes out a bit.) Now lets suppose I have the 12K (which I do) but can make better then the 2.75% in other investments, it would be stupid to not borrow the funds and invest in those areas.

You may ask why I do not take the full bank of my excess cash along with the 12K in borrowed funds (since as stated before my BJ returns will far exceed anything in the stock market, again, pointed out by Wong in Blackjack Secrets/Professional Blackjack) and simply invest the whole thing in Blackjack. The answer, is diversification. Just like the stock market, a bankroll will go up and down. I have long since learned (thank you student loans) to not put all of my eggs in one basket. So I borrow for the stake, so that I can keep my investments maintaining a rate MUCH higher then 2.75% and thus "make" the difference (in addition to my BJ returns) between what is borrowed and what is earned. Now on the other hand, you substitute in doing something stupid like borrowing from a credit card to invest in BJ and paying 15% interest, and all of the sudden you have a point there Sun.

When suggesting people do not borrow for their stake, many APs assume its the old "compulsive gambler" way of borrowing for gamling. Which is generally skyhigh interest and fees. As stated above, there are many other factors to take into account.

D

lefty..
feel free to read my post below "well well well" and ask any questions you may have about the process. I would recommend it provided you feel your skills and act are strong enough to play at a long term advantage. If not, take the money, invest it in something safe while keeping a small amount out for working on your game (this should at least pay the interest expense, maybe a little more). When its up to speed, then take it out of investments (or simply go for your masters degree and borrow more:) ) and hit em hard. There is much negativity towards borrowing for a stake, but as pointed out in my posting below, with a low enough interest rate and assuming you are playing at a long term advantage, it becomes stupid to not.

As for the bad games in AC, I would highly recommend a trip to Vegas or Miss (as the others have suggested) four or five times a year rather then go to AC regularly.

Short term positive fluctuation in the long term probability....

D

Feel free to respond to my post "well well well". Again, your tax dollars are not paying for my student loan, I am. Its not a grant, its a LOAN. On the other hand, I am sure there are plenty of freedoms in this great country you enjoy that other peoples taxes pay for. I do not have kids, I do not have a business, there are tax loopholes ALL over the place for the upper class. I HAVE a job (a good one at that), pay my taxes and enjoy some benefits (such as this) while I am UNABLE to enjoy other benefits that others can. Thats the point of the tax system. Sounds to me like you are more jealous then anything...

D

Overlooking it to defend my bankroll (and tax payer) options, I forgot to thank you for the great advice in regards to the reimbursement installments. That is very true, and I will take that into consideration...

Thanks!

D

The fact is student loans are generally put to many legitimate uses besides books, tuition, fees, and housing and yes, many people enjoy many loopholes in the system.

But I'll still agree with Cardkountr -if my tax dollars do only pay for 50% of the deferred interest on your loan, I'm still not happy about it any more than I enjoy watching Jesse Jackson shake down some corporate suit just because he can. Yes, I know it's the sytem, and most are milking it for what it's worth.

And I still don't agree with SammyBoy -legal or not, I can blame them and I will. :)

As to your 'Finance' education, your cursory summary of investing and diversification was interesting. BTW, I guess you learned some about Warren Buffet while in school.

Warren Buffet said .. "Wide diversification is required only when investors don't understand what they are doing."

In many cases, I believe, diversification is the trump card of a lazy broker that dosen't really want to pay that much attention to your money -so they talk up diversification -when all they really want is to go play golf at 4:30. I'd rather have a good broker churning my money and making me some, than a bad one that just puts it on deposit in the market -but I digress.

I never meant to imply that you were a compulsive gambler, far from it -I just think that borrowing money to 'invest' in BJ play is a bad move.

Bust that theroy out next semester in Finance class. It should make for a fun 50 minutes!

Good luck

Come on SunRunner, you can't be that straight and narrow. Do you tell the casinos that you are a cardcounter when you sit down at the BJ table?