Is it a big deal to get barred

I live in Canada and I don't think the "griffin book" applies to canadians... right? Is there a canadian network that holds pictures of card counters. My city has only a few casinos, if I get barred from one will the other ones know?

This is NOT my plan... but just an idea. What if I saved up thousands of dollars, went to a casino that is too far to play on a regular basis, played at the black table with a big spread, won as much as I could until I got barred, and then quit playing at that casino. I think I could win a lot more money that way than I would in years playing $5 tables once a week.

any comments?

in that it's not a matter of whether it applies or not...casino's all over the world subscribe to it and how they use it is up to themselves.

I don't have the experience to back up my opinion so maybe some of the other guys will chip in, but here it is anyway:

The tactic your suggesting - throw caution (cover) to the wind and play big untill kicked out - has a risk you may have overlooked . . . Standard Deviation.

Playing big will get attention. A really big spread will get attention. So there's probably a finite amount of time from when you start until forced to stop, and it's probably not an extremely long amount. Therefore there's no guarantee you will be positive at all and a very good chance you will get kicked out even if you are loosing!

Then you'll have to decided if you are going to grind it out with a lot of cover to recover, or continue burning places out hoping to get into the long run before playing at all is difficult.

I'm convinced there are ways to play big and win, just be sure to consider all the angles.

First of all, being barred does not necessarily result in a Griffin entry. There are many more players that are barred than wind up in Griffin.

There are dangers in generalizations. Having said that, let me make a generalization. If you are a member of professional BJ team, and you get detected, then there is a high likelihood that you will get entered into the Griffin book. If you are just an individual player who ahs learned how to play a wining game, then Griffin is much less likely.

Secondly, being in Griffin is not an absolute bar to further playing. I know players who are in Griffin, and they continue to get good hours in every year.

I don�t want to give the impression that being in Griffin has no negative consequences. But for lower-stakes players, it isn�t worth worrying a lot about.

I know in Ontario all Charity Casino's, Slots at Racetracks are owned and operated by the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation(OLGC). The Commercial Casino's are part of them but not sure how. They are all regulated by the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario(AGCO).

As far as getting barred, in Ontario I'd say yes it's a big deal because if one Casino knows who you are and what you�re about, they more then likely do.

Note: The AGCO is side branch of the Ontario Provincial Police(OPP)(would be like State Police), and have OPP Casino Enforcement Unit offices and Police Officers at each site.

I can see how casinos can find out who's on a bigplayer team. But do they look for pooled-bankroll teams, in which members play individually?

Just a few questions about counting in Ontario. Do you know how much attention they pay to this at some of the casinos here(Niagra,Brantford,Rama)? I would assume there wouldn't be as much attention as in Vegas since the Ontario casinos are in effect a branch of the government. Also, do you know about the general conditions in these casinos with respect to blackjack?

Also, regarding gaming law in Ontario, it is my understanding that counting isn't illegal and they could not tell you to leave the casino if they thought you were doing this. Have you heard of anyone being barred from an Ontario casino for counting?

Thanks.

Do casinos in the Province of BC subscribe to the Griffin Book?

i spent 2 months working in ontario 2 summers ago and made maybe 20 trips to casino niagra and casino rama, as well as a few to brantford (the home of the great one !!!).

i intentionally tried to get myself tossed from brantford just to see what you could get away with there. the rules were da2, das, 8 decks, ns, nrsa. the limits were $10- $100 in the main floor and $25 - $200 in the so called hi limit room.

i was using ko at the time. just to be as obvious as possible i did 3 things: i kept the count by using a stack of "loonies" ($1 canadian coins)in front of me, i flat bet $25 til i reached the pivot and then went immeaditally to 2 X $200 and when the count got hot i turned my baseball cap around and put it on inside out in traditional "rally-cap" style and started hooting it up. my friend (a good bs player) was bent over in laughter at the sight.

it took about 15 minutes, but i finally got a "tap" and stepped away from the table. the pb said, " we know you are doing something with the coins, and though we don't exactly know what, its illegal to use any 'counting device' in canada, and we consider those loonies to be a 'counting device'."

i said fine, and they allowed me to continue to play. i finished up the shoe and got tired and went home.

i didn't ask, but i surmised either they cannot bar counters in ontario, or they felt that with the 8 decks and crappy pen, it wasn't a good enough game for them to get worried about.

by the way, i found casino rama to be my favorite by far as its a nice plant and the pen was better there than in brantford or casino niagra.

i haven't been back there in 2 yrs.....

Very funny story. By the way, did niagara or casino rama offer any 6 deck games. I visited niagara a few years ago and they had 6 decks. Does anyone have updated info on the ontario casinos (niagara, rama, and brantford). I did happen to play in windsor a bit last weekend: 8 decks, da2,das,rsp-A's, but only found 1 table with decent pen (75%). Thinking of making a trip to brantford, rama and niagara on the way home. I hope they are still as tolerant of counters as you described in your post;)

Counting isn't illegal, as you would expect any electornic counting or cheating devices are illegal. No laws agaist using your brain at the tables.

I know all the "charity casino's" have a max of $100 for any table game, thats set by the AGCO. As for rules of the game I am not sure haven't been in a long time.

saved up thousands of dollars, went to a casino that is too far to play on a regular basis, played at the black table with a big spread, won as much as I could until I got barred, and then quit playing at that casino. I think I could win a lot more money that way than I would in years playing $5 tables once a week.

Yes, you could make much more money betting big than betting small. And counters with the lots of barrings win lots more money than those who play a long time for smaller stakes and never get barred.

If you don't have a great deal of experience what you will also find is that lots of casinos take counter-measures that make the game unattractive. This is done both to lower level counters who are more of a pest than a threat and also at some casinos which are very reluctant to bar players for either public relations or legal reasons in some areas.

yah I know that is a big risk... but I would be definatelly willing to take it with a 1 deck game. I have simulated a lot of play on the computer spreading 1-5 black, using the illustrious 18, and having a large bankroll and I usually win lots.

LOL I'm still debating whether you are joking or not, that's so funny. Hey while we're on serious, but silly, topics... what if you never gave the casino a chance to barr you. As soon as a security guard/pit boss came over you plug your ears and close your eyes and sing really loud and leave. if you never heard it, then it can't be legally binding, can it?

Has a deaf person ever thought of playing BJ... I'm sure not too many casinos have employees that can sign out the barring to them.

-jj

ET Fan,

In Knock Out Blackjack, page 127, Vancura and Fuchs mention that Andy, Seymon, and Katie of the MIT team were detained by the police after playing in Monte Carlo. While in custody, Semyon was told that card-counting is illegal in Monte Carlo. Of course, V & F don't actually say that it is illegal there, just that Seymon was told that it is. Furthermore, V & F do say that the team wasn't charged, and were allowed to keep their winnings.

Does anyone know whether or not counting is illegal in Monte Carlo?

Dog Hand

I interpreted from your original post that you were talking about playing in a way that you knew would get barred, but wanted to hit the casino fast and hard enough to get away with the money before it happened. Like spreading $100 - 5k or more (I assume that's big enough to get you barred quickly - I wouldn't know myself :)

The key is that with a "normal" game you have to get into the long run no matter how much money you are playing for. So some form of cover or reasonable (still aggressive but resonable) would need to be used.

However, if you ever were to happen upon a game that gave you a once in a lifetime edge (some crazy side bet or something). Then forget any form of cover - go for the money!

no... not 100-5000... I was thinking more like 100-500 aggressive with no cover.

I was over generalizing again. I tend to think of the U.S. as the whole world.