Indexes

Indexes

Can someone tell me what advantage you receive by using indexes for I18 using hi lo versus just playing basic strategy. Also, does the advantage change for each situation or is the advantage for each situation pretty close to the same. For example, does using the index for 16 vs 10 increase your advantage more than using the index for 15 vs 10 or any other situation or are they all about the same. I am interested in the following games if anyone has this info. SD, DD and 6-deck all with the following rules. H17, DAS, DA2.

You would need spreadsheets of info to answer your question.

All index numbers or indices have different value for different hands. That said, penetration then is the biggest factor, so the value changes greatly by the true count.

Basic strategy, except in rare cases, has an edge for the house.

If you know your Hi Lo well enough, you need to purchase Schlesinger's Blackjack Attack III to get the reams of answers to your question.

I can tell you that...

I can tell you that you get around 70% of the gain from card counting if you move your money with the count and play basic strategy. Varying your play with indices gives you the other 30%. I believe that was for a 6d game, 1 deck cut off, -10 to +10, 10-1 bet spread. Don't know how that would translate to the I18 but it should be easy enough to interpolate. Find out the gain of the I18 v full indices and adjust. That should be enough to get you started. I have the info laying around here somewhere but you should be able to find what you need easy enough.

btw..Stanford Wong's Professional Blackjack, among other books, is a great source for stuff like this. He ran a lot of sims.

ps

The Illustrious 18 are the top plays out of all the indices available, that give you the greatest gain over basic play. Every indice variation opposed to basic strategy after that offers less and less advantage. I believe Don factored in the frequency of a situation as well as the value to yield the highest gain plays. I have his book. I'm just too lazy to go to the other room and get it.

Partial Answer

SuperD,

The added value of indexes for a particular game with specified rules depends on both the penetration and the bet schedule.

As an example, I ran a sim for two HiLo counters on a 6D, S17, DA2, DAS game with 75% pen. Each counter spread 1:15 with the HiLo TC in black and played all according to this bet schedule:

 

TC Units 

<1   1 

+2   2 

+3   5 

+4  10 

>4  15 

.

Player 1 used the HiLo indexes; Player 2 simply played BS. Here are the Summary results, along with Hand Types Won/Lost for each player:

HiLo Additional Edge from Indexes

Tuesday, June 08, 2010, 04:14 PM

---

Summary

Here a summary by seat or player is displayed. Hands skipped indicates hands not played due to "Wonging." Action is Total $ bet per hour and Win Rate is $ won per hour. IBA is advantage related to the Initial Bet (before double downs.) Std. Devs. are always by player and DI is Desirability Index as defined by BJ Attack.

	Hands			$/Hour		Units W/L	Advan.			Std Dev				Performance
Seat	Played	Skip	%	Action	WinRate	Units W/L	TBA%	IBA%	SE	Round	Hour	100	Shoe	DI	SCORE	N0	Factor
1	411,658,692			$21,050	$163.21	6,528,204	0.775	0.904	.019	3.87	38.70	38.70	20.7	4.22	17.79	56,223	.712
2	411,144,976			$20,283	$109.90	4,395,932	0.542	0.609	.018	3.66	36.56	36.56	19.5	3.01	9.04	110,675	.362
3
4
5
6
7

Strategies

Seat	Playing Strategy	Betting Strategy
1	Complete High-Low	1-15 Spread
2	BS with HiLo Tags	1-15 Spread
3
4
5
6
7

Totals

Rounds: 400,000,000

Hands: 822,803,668

Shoes: 14,022,586

Hours: 4,000,000

---

Results by type of hand are provided. The first four columns of data display the number of bets made, won, lost and tied. Units bet and won are provided. Advantage is Total Bet Advantage.

Player #1: Hand Types
	Hands				Units		Advantage
	Total	Won	Lost	Tied	Bet	Won/Lost	Percent	Std. Dev.
Ins.	2,551,714	882,705	-1,669,009		12,573,440	630,802	5.017%	0.05
Splits	21,872,808	10,498,987	-9,797,225	1,576,596	55,107,600	5,949,192	10.796%	0.03
Soft DD	7,658,109	3,962,022	-3,235,926	460,161	31,703,380	3,959,330	12.489%	0.05
Hard DD	35,700,260	19,881,792	-13,230,519	2,587,949	129,166,300	25,589,180	19.811%	0.022
All DD	43,358,369	23,843,814	-16,466,445	3,048,110	160,869,600	29,548,510	18.368%	0.020

---

Results by type of hand are provided. The first four columns of data display the number of bets made, won, lost and tied. Units bet and won are provided. Advantage is Total Bet Advantage.

Player #2: Hand Types
	Hands				Units		Advantage
	Total	Won	Lost	Tied	Bet	Won/Lost	Percent	Std. Dev.
Splits	21,059,418	10,010,692	-9,523,480	1,525,246	41,887,840	2,975,843	7.104%	0.03
Soft DD	7,025,474	3,616,723	-2,996,576	412,175	24,087,320	2,572,612	10.680%	0.05
Hard DD	35,587,268	19,815,862	-13,208,126	2,563,280	116,066,700	24,519,560	21.125%	0.022
All DD	42,612,742	23,432,585	-16,204,702	2,975,455	140,154,000	27,092,170	19.330%	0.020

As you can see, Player 1 had a much higher Win Rate: $163.21/hr vs. $109.90/hr. Player 1 also had a higher Initial Bet Advantage: 0.904% vs. 0.609%.

If you compare the "Hand Types Won/Lost" Units Won/Lost results for the two players, you'll see that Player 1 won significantly more units than did Player 2 in all of these high-edge categories.

As for the question of which indexes are most important, you really need to get Don Schlesinger's Blackjack Attack 3, which covers this territory in excellent detail.

If you'd like to post the particulars of your situation (games, rules, pen, bet schedule), perhaps I or one of my colleagues will be able to answer your question more fully.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

Clarification

Thanks Dog

I am trying to figure out what the advantage of using each index on average. I want to assume that you don't move your bet at all based on the count and all that you do is adjust your play for the I18 based on HiLo. I am trying to figure out what the advantage would be on average for each situation for the I18, for example 10 vs 10 or 16 vs 10. I would think that the player has more of an advantage for example to stay on 16 vs 10 the higher the count is, but I'm trying to find more of an average advantage for each situation of the I18 to change from BS to the index play. I don't know if it would be an easy calculation to figure out advantage for each of the I18 indexes but if it isn't I am trying to figure out the advantage in total of using the I18 indexes vs BS without moving bet. The game rules are H17, DAS, DA2 for SD, DD and 6-deck with 75% pen. I hope this is more clear. Thanks.

Answer

The approximate answers to your question can be found in BJA3, p. 62, Table 5.1, column 9.

Recently, one of our foremost theoreticians, "Zenfighter," has revisited the entire process of generating the I18 advantages, for several different count systems. I can't give you a date, but he and I will collaborate to bring this incredible study to the public in the near future.

Don

In BJA4? ;-) (nt)

It was suggested :-)

But, I tried to ignore him! :-)

Don

Here are some numbers...

SuperD,

Here are three sims for three players playing a SD, H17, DA2, DAS game with 6 rounds heads up (so, Rule of 7). All three are flat-betting $100/round. Player 1 uses Complete HiLo: all the indexes. Player 2 uses just the Illustrious 18 indexes. Player 3 plays BS only.

****************************** PLAYER 1 ******************************

HiLo Edge from Indexes SD Player 1

Saturday, June 12, 2010, 06:26 PM

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Summary

Here a summary by seat or player is displayed. Hands skipped indicates hands not played due to "Wonging." Action is Total $ bet per hour and Win Rate is $ won per hour. IBA is advantage related to the Initial Bet (before double downs.) Std. Devs. are always by player and DI is Desirability Index as defined by BJ Attack.

	Hands			$/Hour		Units W/L	Advan.			Std Dev				Performance
Seat	Played	Skip	%	Action	WinRate	Units W/L	TBA%	IBA%	SE	Round	Hour	100	Shoe	DI	SCORE	N0	Factor
1	410,012,840			$11,522	$32.74	1,309,414	0.284	0.327	.006	1.17	11.66	11.66	2.9	2.81	7.88	126,963	.315
2
3
4
5
6
7

Strategies

Seat	Playing Strategy	Betting Strategy
1	Complete High-Low	Flat Bet
2
3
4
5
6
7

Totals

Rounds: 400,000,000

Hands: 410,012,840

Shoes: 66,666,667

Hours: 4,000,000

---

Results by type of hand are provided. The first four columns of data display the number of bets made, won, lost and tied. Units bet and won are provided. Advantage is Total Bet Advantage.

Player #1: Hand Types
	Hands				Units		Advantage
	Total	Won	Lost	Tied	Bet	Won/Lost	Percent	Std. Dev.
Ins.	9,210,405	3,281,803	-5,928,602		4,605,203	317,502	6.894%	0.025
Splits	18,981,438	9,522,421	-8,111,613	1,347,404	22,086,450	2,102,481	9.519%	0.03
Soft DD	9,051,331	4,812,274	-3,727,487	511,570	18,102,660	2,169,574	11.985%	0.04
Hard DD	37,191,896	20,957,220	-13,448,933	2,785,743	74,383,790	15,016,530	20.188%	0.021
All DD	46,243,227	25,769,494	-17,176,420	3,297,313	92,486,450	17,186,100	18.582%	0.019

****************************** PLAYER 2 ******************************

HiLo Edge from Indexes SD Player 2

Saturday, June 12, 2010, 06:27 PM

---

Summary

Here a summary by seat or player is displayed. Hands skipped indicates hands not played due to "Wonging." Action is Total $ bet per hour and Win Rate is $ won per hour. IBA is advantage related to the Initial Bet (before double downs.) Std. Devs. are always by player and DI is Desirability Index as defined by BJ Attack.

	Hands			$/Hour		Units W/L	Advan.			Std Dev				Performance
Seat	Played	Skip	%	Action	WinRate	Units W/L	TBA%	IBA%	SE	Round	Hour	100	Shoe	DI	SCORE	N0	Factor
1	409,475,480			$11,527	$21.32	852,644	0.185	0.213	.006	1.17	11.67	11.67	2.9	1.83	3.34	299,607	.134
2
3
4
5
6
7

Strategies

Seat	Playing Strategy	Betting Strategy
1	Complete High-Low	Flat Bet
2
3
4
5
6
7

Totals

Rounds: 400,000,000

Hands: 409,475,480

Shoes: 66,666,667

Hours: 4,000,000

---

Results by type of hand are provided. The first four columns of data display the number of bets made, won, lost and tied. Units bet and won are provided. Advantage is Total Bet Advantage.

Player #1: Hand Types
	Hands				Units		Advantage
	Total	Won	Lost	Tied	Bet	Won/Lost	Percent	Std. Dev.
Ins.	9,217,399	3,284,947	-5,932,452		4,608,703	318,721	6.916%	0.025
Splits	18,118,336	8,953,588	-7,869,138	1,295,610	21,113,410	1,744,946	8.265%	0.03
Soft DD	8,638,190	4,530,176	-3,625,297	482,717	17,276,370	1,809,758	10.475%	0.04
Hard DD	38,337,628	21,452,270	-14,014,964	2,870,394	76,675,250	14,874,590	19.399%	0.021
All DD	46,975,818	25,982,446	-17,640,261	3,353,111	93,951,620	16,684,340	17.758%	0.019

****************************** PLAYER 3 ******************************

HiLo Edge from Indexes SD Player 3

Saturday, June 12, 2010, 06:27 PM

---

Summary

Here a summary by seat or player is displayed. Hands skipped indicates hands not played due to "Wonging." Action is Total $ bet per hour and Win Rate is $ won per hour. IBA is advantage related to the Initial Bet (before double downs.) Std. Devs. are always by player and DI is Desirability Index as defined by BJ Attack.

	Hands			$/Hour		Units W/L	Advan.			Std Dev				Performance
Seat	Played	Skip	%	Action	WinRate	Units W/L	TBA%	IBA%	SE	Round	Hour	100	Shoe	DI	SCORE	N0	Factor
1	408,629,492			$11,363	($4.69)	-187,750	-0.041	-0.047	.006	1.16	11.61	11.61	2.8	-.40	-.16	-	-.006
2
3
4
5
6
7

Strategies

Seat	Playing Strategy	Betting Strategy
1	BS with HiLo Tags	Flat Bet
2
3
4
5
6
7

Totals

Rounds: 400,000,000

Hands: 408,629,492

Shoes: 66,666,667

Hours: 4,000,000

---

Results by type of hand are provided. The first four columns of data display the number of bets made, won, lost and tied. Units bet and won are provided. Advantage is Total Bet Advantage.

Player #1: Hand Types
	Hands				Units		Advantage
	Total	Won	Lost	Tied	Bet	Won/Lost	Percent	Std. Dev.
Splits	16,742,671	8,059,947	-7,469,924	1,212,800	19,694,350	1,253,903	6.367%	0.04
Soft DD	8,645,552	4,534,965	-3,627,510	483,077	17,291,090	1,814,910	10.496%	0.04
Hard DD	37,249,728	20,938,480	-13,628,651	2,682,597	74,499,490	14,619,630	19.624%	0.021
All DD	45,895,280	25,473,445	-17,256,161	3,165,674	91,790,580	16,434,540	17.904%	0.019

**********************************************************************

If you compare their Initial Bet Advantages (or EV's), you'll see that Player 1's IBA is the highest, at 0.327%; Player 2's IBA is in the middle, at 0.213%; and Player 3's IBA is the worst, at -0.047%. Thus, you can see for this game that using just the I18 produces a gain in EV of +0.260% over BS, while using ALL the indexes produces a gain of +0.374% over BS.

The single largest gain over BS is for Insurance. Note that Players 1 and 2 each won about 318,000 units due to insurance bets, while of course Player 3 never took insurance.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

Original Source

If you look in the invaluable "The Theory of Blackjack" by Peter Griffin (6th ed.) you will find two tables giving the exact value of violating your Basic Strategy plays in accordance with the True Count. The first table is for Single Deck. The second is for Infinite Deck. You can easily interpolate between the two if you are sufficiently obsessive.

In a shoe game there are < 20 valuable ones with Insurance and Sixteen vs. Face being the most important.

Where is this??? (nt)

pp. 30, 229, 230 "Average Gains for Varying Basic Strategy"

Average Gains for Varying Basic Strategy (thousandth of a percent)

I thought so

Obviously, I'm more than just casually aware of those charts. But, they are for perfect play, not for any count system. And, of course, they tell you nothing about how volatile the play is.

Don