If using Basic Strategy ONLY...

...does it make a difference if I play shoe versus CSM?

What are the factors that would affect playing one versus the other? Other than being dealt more hands in CSM.

Thank you.

csm is faster, so play non-csm in order to lose at a slightly slower pace. Also seek out full tables for same reason.

If you are a BS player, you need to pay attention to speed and house edge. If the house edge at one casino is twice that at another, then you can play a faster game at the one with half the edge. Current Blackjack News provides information on house edge for CSMs.

As a matter of principle, I don't play CSMs. The playing public should be encouraged to view CSMs and other devices used by the casino to increase house edge as being evil.

isn't working, especially in the Indian casinos, the fastest growing segment of gambling in the US.

have not been well recieved by either dealers who work with them or players. In the more sophisticated markets (Louisiana, Mississippi, locals Vegas Casinos, etc these machines have already come and gone. Only in newer gambling markets with unsophisticated gamblers, monopoly type markets, and on the LV Strip where the stupidity of some players can never be underestimated, have these machines found a niche on lower limit games. Of course, due to the limits involved and the lease payments on the machines I would think that these machines eat a considerable amount of the profit from the low limit games they are on.

and that would be "stupidity of SOME players" to stupidity of MOST players" (the new ones, that is). And, at least here on the Left Coast, these new players are actually completely filling the tables of those casinos who choose to use the BJ slot machines as their preferred method of dealing the game of "Blackjack". What a farce!

Also hate the CSM machines. In Detroit, every Voodoo player "knows" that Voodoo can't work on a CSM machine, and they refuse to play them. You can't "change the flow" of the cards at a CSM game. For knowledgeable non-counters, i.e. BS players, the CSM don't hurt that much. The casino gets a few more rounds an hour out of them, but this is offset by the higher dealer error rate. I haven't done a formal study of it, but I think BS players use less at a CSM game.

The problem, from the casino perspective, is that there isn't much money to be made against BS players. One voodoo player is worth 10 BS players.

You mentioned Indian casinos. In the local Indian casinos in my area, CSM have also come and gone. Casinos simply make more money without them.

feed the machine after each round and that is a slowing process

true that most dislike them

most players hate shuffle machines, except lazy dealers like them

in the newer Calif casinos, CSM's have not decreased in popularity yet. Naturally I hope the Detroit "trend" eventually catches on here.
Maybe the stupid players in Indian casinos out west will lose all their money in a year or two and go back to getting drunk every night, or whatever it is that they do.

At the present time, though, the sheer volume of these players is truly astonishing. They line up behind full seats at these tables, waiting for their chance to sit down and lose their money.

I think the Indian casinos out here are extremely risk-averse, and very frightened of traditional blackjack games. They seem to believe that paying all that money each month for leasing the CSM's is worthwhile because they think that no one will ever walk away a big winner. That is untrue, of course, because of the huge fluctuations inherent in blackjack play, CSM's or no CSM's.

Welcome to non-vegas gambling. The scene you describe is being repeated 100 times in new casinos, dog and horse tracks, and riverboats across the entire country. The demand doesn't seem to be slowing. I saw 4 casinos open in Kansas City, or 3 casinos within an hour of Cincinnati, etc., and saw the crowds lined up to play at full tables, I thought "in a year or two these places are going to have sucked up all the money in the area, and will have to offer $2 single deck blackjack to attract crowds". But now, 5 to 6 years later, the small regional market casinos are still turning in $10 million dollar monthly gross revenues. They are still packing the boats on weekends to play $25 - $50 min. poorly cut 6 and 8 deck shoes.

I guess the Indian casino you are talking about doesn't serve alcohol, because in the casinos in the Midwest, going out and getting drunk every night, and gambling, goes hand in hand.

The CSMs are just the tip of the iceberg for this 'gamble at any cost' crowd. They line up, and vote for, and buy lottery tickets that rake 50% off the top, take 50% of the remainder back in taxes, and then pay the remaining 1/4 off over a 20 year annuity. Look at some of the other table games that have become so popular. If you get a bad hand, you lose. If you get a good hand, and the dealer doesn't qualify, you lose. If you get a good hand, and the dealer qualifies, then you lose again, since if the dealer has qualified, then his hand is probably better than yours by definition. Oh yeah, and on each hand you get to throw away an extra $1 on a side bet, which as one old guy told me at the blackjack table last night, "I've been playing poker for 35 years, and I've never been dealt a straight flush straight up."

If you just put a slot in the wall that caused some lights to flash and bells to ring when money was put in it, but had absolutely no means to pay back any money, people would probably fight each other for the right to 'play' it next. I've seen people sit down at a table, become too impatient to sit thru the last hand and twenty second shuffle of a double deck game, and so get up and run over to an 8 deck Spanish 21 table, they are in such a hurry to lose their money. Given a choice between not playing, and playing a sucker game you can't win, the play at any cost decision wins every time.

I think the demand is not abating because, despite the recent market set back, the 90s saw an incredible amount of wealth created. Real Estate values, easy credit, 401Ks, pension funds -- and you didn't have to be a genius to tap in on it. You can get VISA cards, secured against your home equity, with $100,000 credit limits. Look at recent trends - glorified pick up trucks with camper shells, called SUVs selling for $50,000. Doesn't $200 'collectible' beanie babies simply mean that too many stupid people have too much money?

I think the 'risk adverse' Indian Casino is because the tribe doesn't actually run the casino. They usually sub-contract out the operation of the gaming to an established casino company to run it for them. This middleman increases the cost. I also think they are under a lot of pressure to deliver results. Imagine trying to explain to a group of tribal elders that the bottom line is short this month because of variance, or that you are trying to offer a good game to get better long-term results. Better to clip the suckers for as much as you can, as fast as you can, and insure the tribe doesn't replace you with another company.

I'll get off my soapbox now, I know where a good game is with 90% pen.

and it does not bode well for the U.S. and its future as a world power when so many of its citizens are so stupid and the leaders taking a rake from the misery

if i do not feel i can beat the game i will not play

some of the great players on this site like scobi and you and etfan should open a school to teach people how to play to win or at least lose very little

I live a couple of hours from the Ms. casinos and several people who play there come into my place of business. These guys bet greento black and don't even know basic strategy and furthermore, don't even want to learn! I've told these folks about this site and offered to let them borrow some of my books but they just don't seem to understand that there is an optimum strategy for all casin games. It's a waste of breath to try to help them!

Ray Holmes.

at least you tried to help

Most of the CSM's are disappearing. The only one's I know of now remain at the Indian run Greektown Casino, and these have been slowly disappearing in the last six months. In fact last night the ratio of shoe vs csm was down to about 50%.

I had a guy this past weekend that chided me for not splitting my fours vs a dealers ace. He doubled greens on a K,2 vs a 9 on the first hand after the shuffle.

I wish he'd just give me his money.

While I hate to promote CSMs, because they are the death knell for counters like myself and I believe that they should be looked upon as evil manifestations of the devil himself, in the interest of fairness, I have to point out some really good research done by a fellow called "The wizard of odds". On his Web Site, www.thewizardofodds.com, which is totally free, he makes a very convincing mathematical argument as to why the house edge at a CSM is actually smaller than it is for a six deck shoe for the non-counting basic strategy player. Now I have no idea whether this guy is a shill for the casinos, but his argument is mathematically sound.

nt