how good is this DD game?

*Double deck BJ
*3:2 on naturals
*double down on any first two cards
*may double down after splitting
*may not re-split aces, and you only receive one card
*dealer stands on soft 17
*IMO penetration is excellent - about 80% - dealer uses a cut card and places it 15-20 cards from the bottom

Also, some of the dealers are pretty weak and sometimes flash the first burn card. You can also get away with some ticky tacky moves like the moves Carlson describes in his book like the "quadruple down" and the "free hit." The game is for fairly small stakes, but I can bet spread very easily with little or zero heat. I have been spreading $10-80. Or sometimes I will move to two hands of $75 each if there are a few other players. It is also easy to take alot of breaks when the deck goes into big minus counts.

For the bad part, I am expected to tip because I am a casino employee who also works off tips (I deal poker) and some of the dealers and pit crew know me. But this also helps with my camo, as they all think I'm a degenerate gambler and they juice me on my comp ratings. I never tip more than a dollar, but I toke about $5-8 per hour and will give them $3-4 when coloring up after big wins. If I am getting crushed by the dealer, I tip zero.

And I am not good at math, so could anyone give an estimated win rate with my $10-80 spread (no complicated math please). I would also guess the dealers get out about 20% fewer hands due to their lack of experience. I am using the simple hi lo count and use Wongs' strategy numbers from his Prof BJ book (which I adore BTW, thank you Stanford for your great book - I paid the cover price and it's been worth every penny). I only use the strategy numbers for the most common plays i.e. 12v2-6, 13v2-6, 16v10, 16vA, doubling on 9,10,A etc. I take insurance if the true count is +3 or higher and I do a side count of aces. I do lose the count occasionally and just bet small and play BS.

So any opinions on the game and win rate with my toking? Even though I do get "good comp ratings," the comps at these casinos are limited to some bounceback cash and average food comps. Also, what is the bankroll requirement for this game? I currently do not have a $10K roll, but I have started playing with about $2K and this seems small for the swings I have been having, but so far $2K has been enough to keep playing (so far).

Is the game too small to overcome the toke rate?

The game you described is a very good game, but given the size of your bank, you should think twice about toking at the rate you described. You can expect to earn around $40 an hour, but your risk of ruin is around 30% before tokes. Toking $5 an hour really eats into your hourly EV and raises your ROR by another 6% or so.

I believe that i know this casino; and the dealers there "keep their own".
They give fine pen' only as long as the white chips emigrate to their toke boxes.
That has been my experience there.
I M O. Those tokes are well worthwhile.

on top of your bet? Just tip the winning white chip until you lose a bet?

Also, now that you have posted every tiny detail about the game and your play, if any of the PCs at this shop visit this site, you may have outed yourself.

No need for all the detail. Be a little less descriptive and join GC.

You have a great game! Penetration... Wow! You should play this as long as you can. Most of your questions can be answered on this web site side bar topics. Snyder's Black Jack Formula will give you exact detail of your game and what you are doing. Conceal some of your winnings when ever you can and when your losing make it look like you have lost more. Then your toke rate will be less. However... you are overbetting your bankroll. 2K Bank. You have 25 top bets with $80. Your chance of success is less than 70% to double your bank. One negative fluctuation will wipe you out unless you have more $. Try 150-200 top bets as your BR. Kelly says to size your bets according to your advantage. Example: 2% edge bet 2% of your bank. That would be $40 as your top bet. Many players ponder 1/2 Kelly. It's your decision. Going to 2 hands changes the top bet. Basically you would be betting less on each of 2 hands but you will win faster because you are betting more. Stay in the game. When you are out of money the game is over.

This might be a place for a field experiment. Try not toking and see what happens to the penetration. If a player is making $40 an hour and tips away $5, he's giving up 12.5% of his advantage. Now that could be worthwhile if the drop in penetration is severe, say from 80% to 60%. A small field experiment could tell the tale.

The good news is that the tables are full of ploppies that toke rather well. I toke what I do so I don't stand out like a sore thumb. I guess I would call it the "cost of doing business?" Most of the crew that are familiar with me are PCs, so I limit my toking to when they are standing over the game. I would like to emphasize that with the tokes and my gambling degenerate act, it makes my camo complete.

Dealers are pooling at all clubs. I've seen other counters on the games and they are toking it up bigger than me.

The good news is that the tables are full of ploppies that toke rather well.

While I appreciate the fact that other tipping players may do the trick on encouraging better penetration, the downside is that crowded tables have a negative effect on your hourly EV because they slow down the game.

I've seen other counters on the games and they are toking it up bigger than me.

Just because other counters are doing something doesn't make it the right thing to do. I've watched a lot of counters over the years and found that many of them are not playing a very effective game. There are a lot of factors that can impact on the effectiveness of a counter's game, but I think three of them are not betting enough when the count calls for it, using too much cover and toking too much.

Sounds like the game may not last.

I know that full games kills EV, but I tend to only play when there are 2-3 players at the table (incl myself). I know a lot of you top players out there love Heads Up play, but I prefer a game with one other player.

And thank you all for your honesty in your replies. I was a G chipper up until a year ago, and if I continue to "get back in the game," I am definitely going to re-establish my membership. I have always concentrated on SD games around Vegas, Tunica and northern Nevada, so this new DD game is a little new to me. And I also am considering moving over to some shoe action. Stanford's book has been great for that. And I also intend on getting Bootlegger's book, it sounds like an awesome read.

Yes, but I've been out of BJ for awhile until I stumbled upon some of these games. The bankroll issue was the reason for my absence. It's fun to be back in the game.