Help me out People

I am currently attending "Wong's Wonderful School of Math Enlightenment"...or in other words, "Learning What I Wasn't Taught in High School on How to Properly Count to 21" I am only on Lesson 7 folks, so please understand and be patient with me.

OK, I got the BS down and I just got to where I can count a deck down in 40 seconds. (Getting the hang of pairs is neat)(Obviously, I need more practice)

I went to Tunica without the intent on counting but to get a feel how much work is ahead of me. While there I found that if I stood behind the players I could keep a running count as they played. (I am using the KO system) A couple of times I tried it when I played but I could only get to the second hand before losing the count. When that happened, I would just forget counting, altogether, and revert back to BS... I realize that with some serious practice I should be able to get the deck down to about 20 seconds and then I shouldn't lose the count.

Enuf on me, but here is where I could use some feedback. My wife is a better than most BS player. She misses being a "perfect" BS player only because she still has a problem with making the correct play occasionally for her own reasons. Sometimes she does NOT play a hand the way it is supposed to be played because of a "feeling". I keep telling her to forget her feelings but she can't quite bring herself to it yet.

She was playing at third base and I was NOT trying to keep up with the count, just watching her. She was playing two places and when it came time to play the last hand she had a 2 against the dealer's 3. She gets confused on the right play here and asked me how to play it. I told her to hit it. (I kept thinking...2, stand 4 thru 6 otherwise hit") She asked me again to make sure and I said "Yes, hit it". She did, and wouldn't you know she lost the hand by busting and the other two players at the table lost, as well, as she took the dealer's bust card.

One player yelled almost at the top of his lungs "How could you hit that?" and he said it over and over to her...the other player literally fell off his stool and then when he sat back down he lowered his head into his hands with his eyes covered and just sat there for a few minutes holding up the game. Needless to say it made my wife feel terrible as they were blaming HER for their losing. It was the correct play and I told them in not too kindly a fashion. I told her don't worry about it and play, but she was hurting and couldn't even talk because the way these two idiots made her feel. The one guy just sat there for the longest time with his head in his hands. (He lost $100 on each of two places he was playing and it almost wiped him out as he had only one chip left...and the other guy lost $25 on his hand) I told her to leave.

Now, I KNOW what I would have done but my wife is not like me. I feel this was very RUDE and intentionally hurtful to my wife who only did what she was SUPPOSED to do...make the correct play! Whatever happened to table manners? We have all sat at tables with idiotic plays coming from 3rd base. I'm talking about the ones that make bone head plays that IF they made the correct play everyone would have won except they don't, and everyone loses. As an example, the nite before I can honestly say that I have now seen it all. A drunk lady at 3rd refused to hit a total of 5 (That's FIVE, folks) because she did not see any face cards on the table and wanted to do us all a favor by saving them for the next hand. Of course, we all lost on that wonderful strategy. Noone at that table, including me, gave the lady nasty comments...maybe a few strange looks, but nothing more.

In this case, my wife was NOT drunk and played the hand correctly.

What is the proper way to handle such skum? I have been working my anger management for quite some time and have to bite my tongue sometimes, but now I think maybe this would have been a good time to unleash, what do you think? What would you recommend I tell my wife in the event this happens again?

Thanks, Radar

There is no really good way to handle those kinds of comments. Anyone who makes them is too ignorant to pay any attention to the truth. It is usually best to ignore them and keep playing the way you should play. Every now and then, if one really gets under my skin, I will point out that it is my money in the betting square and I will play my hand anyway I want to play it. If the complainer doesn't like it, there are plenty of other tables for him to play.

That won't help, though. In the end, you just have to take comfort in the fact that you made the right play and it just so happened to have been made in front of an asshole.

Radar,

You wrote about your wife:
She was playing two places and when it came time to play the last hand she had a 2 against the dealer's 3. She gets confused on the right play here and asked me how to play it. I told her to hit it.

Actually, with 2 (that is, a pair of aces) against a 3, the correct BS move is to split! ;-)

Seriously, I assume you meant she had a 12 vs. 3, for which the BS move is to hit, as you said. As for how to handle the ill-mannered louts, I have found that they can provide unintentional profit opportunities. What I do before the second time I make an unpopular play is to announce my intentions to the table at large, and offer instead to take the other player's advice for a fee. For example, had I been playing third base and betting, say, $5, I would have offered to accede to the other player's wishes for $5. If he accepted, I would at least break even, which in itself is better than the EV for 12 vs. 3, and at best I would make an extra nickel. If the other guy declined my gambit, then I would reply that it is my money, and I will play it as I see fit.

You need to convince your better half to lose the hunch plays, and you and the missus have to develop thick skins to play this game. If you let the other players annoy you, you will never be able to concentrate enough to play at an advantage.

Just my advice, and probably worth every cent you paid for it!

Dog Hand

Welcome to the world of toils and struggles of having to deal with the rest of the player's cruel attitudes. As if the game itself isn't hard enough. You and your wife along with the rest of the players of the world will forever experience these kinds of problems at the tables. Though, until you get tougher skinned and able to hit them back with a snappy answer or ignore them, I suggest staying closer to 1st base. A lot less scrutiny there.

Personally, I just say, "just playing by the book sir, obviously you haven't read it?" If they continue to make stupid nonsense comments, ask them if they would like to put their $ where their mouth is regarding proper basic strategy, (while showing them a black chip as the amount your willing to wager on the fact that your right and they are wrong). I've made some extra cash on the side this way. They usually get so pissed and embarrassed that they soon leave the table. However, you need to involve the other players at the table to be witnesses of the bet and you need some proof. Often the Pit Boss will know proper B S and will verify. Also you need to be ready to pull out a small B S card for the exact game your playing, i.e. 6D, 2D or single D. with other variations also included. If your going to try this, you gotta know proper B S for the game you are on.

Now if you make a play other than B S (and you ONLY do that because the count and indices call for it) then you just need to be tough as nails with whatever they say and you will eventually find your own way to deal with it. Never apologize for what happens to them either. Never let them see you feeling bad for what happened to them. Keep in mind that your plays will save their azzes just as often as it kicks their azzes. Remind them when you save their azzes with whatever plays made it happen. Ask them why their not throwing you tips. Often they will feel the heat from you and leave. Show confidence in your decisions. They�ll cut you a whole lot of slack. Remember when we were kids how the bullies picked on the kids who were weak and lacking confidence?

Also, tell your wife not to try and go against pure math. State-of-the-art computers have already determined the proper B S for the game. Don�t try and reinvent the wheel. Go get �em.

Stealth Bomber

Radar, Bootlegger, and Stealth Bomber,

See Radar? Three different people with almost identical advice at nearly the same time! Must be completely accurate!

Hey, Boot... anything new on the book?

Dog Hand

To be a CC or AP, you have to try to fly below the radar -

1. You should not have lectured the other players, in front of the dealer and the floor/pit, about why she should hit the 12. It is not a basic BS play and you can mark yourself and your wife for review by the pit and security as a possible CC or AP.

2. You know, or should know, that hitting 12 or 13 and taking the dealer's break card, almost always causes a reaction by the players who lose, because they do not know the play, and you must make your wife aware of that.

3. If your wife was making her own plays at the table or you had been 'playing as a couple' (discussing each hand) up to that point, the other players would probably have vented a comment and let it go.
When you 'forced' her to hit the 12, they wanted to vent at you, so they did so repeatedly - through your wife, to get to you, who they perceived as an interloper, since you were not 'playing as a couple'. You rose to the bait and the situation escalated.

4. You must discuss these situations with your wife. Your wife has to realize that many players get mad at a decision another player makes (whether the decision was right or wrong) and they will get mad whether it is you or her or Stanford Wong making the decision. They are not mad at the person who made the decision, especially since they do not even know the decision maker. They are mad that they lost.

5. Your wife must learn to be like a duck, let the venting roll off her like water off a duck's back.

6. As for you unleashing, the better way to handle it would have been to ask the floor/pit for assistance - the players were verbally abusing your wife and you did not want to cause a confrontation that might escalate to physical violence in the facility. Let the floor/pit do his job and, if necessary, he/she will call security to resolve the situation and muzzle the other players.

7. If you feel it may be warrented or for cover, ask for a security escort to your vehicle/room when you leave the casino area. After all, what CC/AP would want a security escort.

You both must learn that most other players do not know what or why you are doing what you do in BS/CC/AP play and that your decisions may cause anger and/or confusion in those players. To be successful BS/CC/AP players, you must learn to ignore their comments or have innocuous responses for the comments and learn that you cannot lecture players about correct play in front of casino personnel.

Other than that, have fun and enjoy what you are doing.

You must be careful with my previous suggestions on proving your knowledge. If your act is good though, it works and can make some extra $. It's a nice "pay backs are a bitch" too.

Stealth Bomber

we must show some emotion when someone on 3B makes an unusual move. So Radar, if you or your wife does something a little out of the norm on 3B and it wipes out the table, you might just see a guy on 1B rolling his eyes a little and shaking his head while looking at the pit critter. ......... it's just me putting on my act. ;-)

Stealth Bomber

1. You should not have lectured the other players, in front of the dealer and the floor/pit, about why she should hit the 12. It is not a basic BS play and you can mark yourself and your wife for review by the pit and security as a possible CC or AP.

Hitting a 12 versus a 2 or a 3 is a basic strategy play, and it shouldn't mark you for review. I do agree that it isn't wise to lecture other players about basic strategy or anything that makes you appear to be a knowledgeable player.

I finally have the edited version of my book in hand for my review and revision. That's what I'm doing now.

Not aces, for sure...funny, after it was all over, I thought about exactly that...asking what they wanted and telling them that she would forgo hitting if anyone wanted to pay her even money...But, at the time, was just giving her advice without thinking about the others that were playing.

Thanks, and I did get what I paid for with your advice

Radar

Ignore the comments of others. Play the way you feel is correct for the count and your situation. Never be swayed because another player has black or purple on the felt, or criticizes your play. If it gets really bad, call over one of the suits. If they become verbally abusive, just leave and go to another table. To stay will only lessen your gaming experience and there will be a pall over the table because of that person's attitude.

I have found it prudent to offer no advice unless solicited. If a player looks at me and asks "what would you do?", I'll tell them, beyond that, it matters not to me what amount of chips they have out.

Focus on you against the dealer, not against other players.

I once violated my own advice after having seen the following:
Young guy sits next to me (I'm at 3rd), he is betting purple. He gets a pair of 3s, the dealer shows an ace. He SPLITS the 3s and tosses another purple out like it was red. Fist hand gets an 8 and he doubles, another purple, gets a 6 for 17, facing an ace with $1k out. The second hand works it's way to an 18, dealer turns over and 8 for 19. Adios $1.5k in about 15 seconds. I was awed by the idiocy of this move and said "that was about the dumbest thing I've ever seen". He took it well, and said "I knew it was wrong, but I was just feeling a little cocky". I don't make comments anymore at anything I see, and I've seen a ton.

Above all, have fun and play your game the way you see it.

You say..."I do agree that it isn't wise to lecture other players about basic strategy or anything that makes you appear to be a knowledgeable player."

Yet I like Stealth Bomber's comback..."just playing by the book sir, obviously you haven't read it?" Why is it the quickies never come to me when I need them?

Would a comment like this REALLY bring scrutiny? Especially when she asked me twice?

Thanks

I must admit, after a guy drops 15 big ones for you to make a comment like that it's a wonder he didn't reach over and pop you one...you ARE a gutsy guy, I will say that, but if I was at that table when you said it I would have had to leave to compose myself.

Oh...you say that I or my wife should leave the table in a situation like the one from my original post. I feel just the opposite. Why should SHE leave when she did nothing wrong, they lost and if they don't like her play, I feel THEY CAN LEAVE! Now I would like some discourse from you on your position as I can be swayed if I'm wrong. Being wet behind the ears, I am a sponge for knowledge so let's hear it...thanks for your input, greatly appreciated.

I told the player to stop critisizing him & to leave him alone in a voice that was loud enough to attract the attention of the PC & he came over to find out what was going on. Player said that the "kid" wasn't playing right. I told the PC that this player was critisizing my son's play & he told the player not to make any further comments about my son's play. Player left. PC then said that the player has caused problems like that in the past & if it happened again by that player to let him know & he would take care of it.
I will not let anyone intimidate me or my family members at the tables. Grrrrrr!
Your wife needs to be more assertive.

jl's got it right on this point. Its smart never to let on that you are a strong player. You should see some of the reactions I've gotten from other players when I've split 10s! The best reaction is to feign ignorance, realizing at the same time the players who are upset at you will never approach your level of skill. To do otherwise and call attention to your knowledge is just an exercise in ego.

Radar,
I have about a thousand hours of Las Vegas counting experience, and am a mental health counselor as my day job. I have 2 points for you that I hope you will consider:
1. Let me suggest to you that making a harsh comment to protect your wife is not a good plan. There are two reasons for this. First, making any kind of a scene will attract attention. A person's memory is driven primarily by the strength of the emotional response they have to the stimulus provided by a situation. In other words people in the pit are more likely to remember your face and take note of your play if they are provided with an emotional stimulus involving you. If you make cutting remarks to people who insult you you are bringing attention to yourself. Secondly,this kind of ego battle will not only attract attention to you, it will drain energy from you and reduce your ability to follow the game accurately. I'm speaking from experience here. I have found two responses to your situation that almost always work. I sometimes respond by saying something like,"I guess I blew it, but I'll bet you'd be happy if I'd made the dealer bust. I know I would have been." That works best if the person is only a little angry. Most of the time I will say something like:"I'm sorry, what should I have done?" They then vent their anger on me and calm down. People usually calm down if they are given an opportunity to release their built up tension, and the very best way to get someone to feel better is to agree with them. It is very hard to be angry at someone who is agreeing with you. I then move to another table a few minutes later.

2. Remember, you are not there to beat the other players. What the other players think about you is irrelevant. You are there to beat the casino, and anything that keeps you from doing that is a blow to your bottom line. You don't know those other players, and almost certainly never will. You don't have to WIN the argument with the other players, because even if you do you will have accomplished nothing. It is better to win the war than win the battle. You also mentioned that you have a history of anger issues. If playing with your wife triggers strong emotions in you then the two of you should talk about why. The conversation might help the two of you grow closer together. A situation like this is an excellent opportunity for you to practice anger management. If you can learn to handle these kind of situations appropriately you will be way ahead in the game of life, and THAT is worth the investment.
-N.P.

Where do I start? When I spoke of anger management, I was saying it in jest...matter of fact, I'm a very resolved kind of guy. I was just curious as to whether or not I should have made a snappy comment back at the guy to quiet them down in the future.

Quite frankly, I know my wife or I, when I play, am not playing the others and could quite frankly care less what they think of my play or my decisions, but my wife is more easily hurt than I am and their manners toward her was downright wrong.

Looking back at the situation, I should have said something a little more snappy...something like Stealth Bomber suggested, but leaving the table, NEVER. I feel they should leave if they didn't like her play. And my wife DIDN'T leave, either. They went broke on the next hand and they left. PC didn't hear anything except the other player's reactions and dealer made no comments after they left. But my wife WAS hurt and I feel that people need a little more class when they play, that's all. These two bums had none!

You say I/or my wife should say "I'm Sorry"...you serious?

I would never apologize for doing something correctly. If I'd would have asked them what they would have done, they would have said to not hit the 12. Then when I get into the followup question of why?, they would just get more aggravated and a bigger scene would develop...I chose to let it go and told my wife to just play and forget it...they steamed for another hand or two until they broke and left...all's well.

Reasoning for my question is to find out what more experienced players would have done in a similiar situation because I know you guys have played many more rounds than me and have experienced similiar situations in the past.

Thanks for your input.

Radar