help! i'm in over my head

hi all,

two things recently happened this weekend at the casino i go to. just as a reminder, i'm only 20 and a college student. i also use the knock-out counting system (hence Rocky). i play at a casino in canada. first, i was playing at a $50 min. table solo and two 6-8, "very italian" "beasts" sat down in spots one and seven. these guys were decked out in leather jackets, dockers, basically looked like gangsters. then and older italian guy sat down and started betting 100 - 200 each hand, like it was nothing. he was getting beaten badly and was getting upset. the count skyrocketed, and he was sitting in spot 3 (i was in spot 4). i say, bet a little bigger this hand (more like a whisper) he bets 1,000 and i'm like "oh great, what if he loses". well, he got a blackjack, gave me a hug and a kiss on the cheek. i told him when he should press and when he shouldn't. he made 20,000 in an hour with me (he was betting MUCH bigger than i was). later, i'm eating with my buddy at a buffet and a bodyguard (6-8 guy) comes up to me with an envelope. he says "Mr. (very long italian name) sends his warmest regards...." in the envelope was $500. umm what should i do if i encounter them again (which is likely).
i have also become very close to the higher ups at the place. ian anderson wrote in "burning the tables in las vegas" that was a good thing. to make a long story short, the casino manager, on a very busy saturday night, bent over backwards for me to help me out. my buddy left early, so the manager went out of his way to squeeze a $100 taxi comp for me and made sure i got home safe. i have also become close to many pit bosses, dealers, shift bosses, and security supervisors and guards.
i think i'm in over my head. any comments or advice out there? i need it badly soon, cause i'm going back to that casino on wednesday. any comments or advice would be appreciated.

Blackchip betting is not too uncommon these days in larger casios: inflation! And showy playing by the connected is not likely to occur in the main casino areas.

And should you really encounter someone connected in some way at least you will not be likely to be roughly backed-off. Try also to converse back and forth, like saying, "no warrantee that my playing won't hurt." You could get a lot of "shade" properly handling the situation.

Yo Rocky,
What casino in canada do you play...is it Casino Niagara? I play their all of the time but do you know of a better casino in the area...cause im a college student who counts and has been successful but betting at 25 and 50 dollar mins is pretty steep... do you know a better place in canada.
ps. im from the states

Are you telling me that the minimum tables at Niagara are $25-50? Way to rich for my blood.

well they arent always that high. Like if you go early morning till about 3pm you might find $15 tables or if even a rare $10 table but for the most part in the prime time of the day they are 25 to 50.. Its so sick the monopoly that those basturds have on the area...does anyone know of a casino nearby with better mins.

Everything in life you do is a negotiation. You need to let people know you know your business, but that your business is high risk and it is not completely fault proof.

Like someone else stated, simply state that your advice does not come with any rock solid guarantees. This clearly stated should thwart of any retaliation.

My secondary advice is that you must decide whom your friends are. The Casino is not your friend ever. You can get to know people but never let emotions get in the way of your money. They know what you are there for.

...just for moving over a spot so that the higher roller could play two hands. I tried not to take it, but he forced me. ;)

No offense to Ian, but if you want to hear from the other side of the "Making friends with the pit folks" issue, you might want to check out what Bryce Carlson says about it.
@^!
He speaks directly against it in BJFB, and warns that it can backfire on you big time. He doesn't advise against being friendly, just against becoming friends. Its a thin line, sometimes.
@^!
When someone forms an opinion that you are "okay" (by their standards) they can often become pretty angry when it turns out you aren't. (Again, by their standards, not mine or yours.) They feel hoodwinked.
Why so?
Because you've made them feel (and maybe look) stupid for being wrong about you. People hate that, and they usually act accordingly.
@^!
Mine is merely a drop in the vast sea of opinions.
Take care,
@^)
Cyclops

Check out the website of the San Francisco Chronicle. I won't put up a link after an embarassing typo at first on putting a link into a post I made on the Vegas Life page! Search also google.com, for information on Webteck, a scandal during the mid Reagan presidency. The article in question quoted a pitboss on how he felt betrayed!

Have to be careful on what order you use with google.com too ;-)

SG,

In your shoes, I would have taken the money in a flash. The high roller is living in his dream world, where he spreads what is an insignificant amount of wealth (to him) in order for the attention he craves. Part of him being willing to give you $500 just to move over a spot is his way of showing A: how much money he has and B: how much he likes having people do as he asks for money.

It's no different than a gambler tipping a dealer, just on a much smaller scale. Just as I would be insulted if a dealer threw 50 cents back at me, just as I would insult obnoxious ploppies as a dealer by throwing the tip back at them, you too would be (inadvertantly, no doubt) insulting him by refusing it - as witnessed by his insistence.

Now I cannot abide by hustling high rollers for tips, just like I cannot abide by dealers hustling me for tips. But unsolicited, random acts of generosity should not go unheeded. If you really don't think you deserve the money, then take the chip and donate it to some worthy cause that needs the money more than the casino does.

M.

consulting on the Wells Fargo/Norwest merger, and announcement of reserve of stock in merged company to settle charter claims from previous aquisition of PriMerit FSB. That would be from CNN's website and Dow Jones news.

Obhjectionable but not bad for having bad things happen, and still getting game. Grifter may make a similar play, but less objectionable, by noting the case of Getty v. Getty Trust, involving a similar bank that never was. In Grifter's case the suggested investment actually made $$$$$$, but the authorities claim may be similar to the script of Mel Brook's, The Producers! (Grifter, play it like K.G. did and walk ;-)

So you can still get game. Even if Griffinized. Even if badly nailed. Even if harrassed to cover-up where others have been doing naughty things. Just as long as you still draw breath!

But I didn't solicit or hustle the toke. He asked me if I'd mind moving over a spot, and I simply said not at all. I was thinking it was best for cover as I didn't want to be viewed by the pit as having pissed off their high rolling loser, and I figured he wouldn't be there long anyway as far as card eating concerns. Really surprised me when he pitched me a purple. I said something like "Are you sure?" or "That's not necessary", and he said "You gotta take it... I took your cards" (He got a BJ on my old spot). He was betting $2500 hands (table max) and often betting black for the dealer, wasn't even close to playing decent BS. He didn't last long before running out of money, and I think he then realized he overtipped me and the dealer, as well as his overbetting. He gave me a look before leaving that made me think he was hoping I would feel sorry for him & offer the purple back, but I didn't.

I have to admit that my first thought was that it didn't seem quite right to take money directly from a ploppy. But if you think about it, all the money we make as advantage players comes from ploppies. The money flowing through the casino to us doesn't change the source. If we don't take the money, the casinos will, which was exactly the case regarding the purple chip. There is not a doubt in my mind that had I given the purple back to the ploppy, it would have then ended up back in the dealer tray as a lost bet.

I have to admit that my first thought was that it didn't seem quite right to take money directly from a ploppy. But if you think about it, all the money we make as advantage players comes from ploppies. The money flowing through the casino to us doesn't change the source. Naaaaah! We take our money from the casinos. Look at it this way: if you hadn't been there, would the ploppy have lost less??

There is not a doubt in my mind that had I given the purple back to the ploppy, it would have then ended up back in the dealer tray as a lost bet. Exactly. That's where you pin your moral justification. Take that $500 and educate a ploppy. ;-)

ETF

... is it may not be GOOD advice for a ploppy! Think about it. TC = +3. Ploppy bets $300. Ploppy gets Ace-four against a six. Ploppy stands. Not pretty.

I hope mammie and pappie are rich, or at least know their 20 year old college student is betting $50 - $500 per hand.

ETF

.. as soon as you get a purple, the last thing you want is for him to bust out and give you "that look". When he hits the table, say something like "wow, you're playing big, I don't want to screw up your cards!" Plus (at local casinos) the pit staff are generally in high orbit around tables with such players, which gives free reign for the chihuahua to pick up his breadcrumbs at another table.

I learned this the hard way. When you go to surrender a $2 bet, and the 2x$100 high roller starts chewing you out and begging you not to surrender it, there are really no winners in this situation. Anyone superstituous enough to pay me when I move over because he "took my blackjack" is superstituous enough to chew me out for doubling A7 v 6.

At least, that's my take on the matter :)

M.

"Look at it this way: if you hadn't been there, would the ploppy have lost less??"

Exactly one of my points, but of the three parties involved (the casino, the advantage player, and the ploppy), the ploppy is the only one that that pays in while the casinos and advantage players both take money out of the equation. The casino is a net receiver of funds, not a payer in the equation. Sure our share flows through the casino, but it is the ploppy's money and simply a matter of how we and the casinos split it.

If you think it's the casino's money we get, then taking the ploppy and his money out of the equation should change nothing from our point of view. But obviously the casino would not keep giving us their money if there was no ploppy money coming in, so this cannot be the case.

Naturally I would prefer to think I'm taking the casino's money, but I believe in calling a spade a spade and I don't think that's the case. However, if a ploppy is gonna throw money away anyway, I have no moral problem taking my share as long as I don't hustle or con to get it.