Griffin Book?

Hello:
I was backed off twice at a Non-Nevada casino.
Not too long ago in Vegas I had a couple of experiences at a
casino, apparently known for sweating counters, that
made me think I might be in Griffin Book or SIN.
I got a players card with my real name and address.
The first time I gave the pit my card, while he was
entering it in the computer I believe I heard him mumble
to someone "...possible professional..." At a later playing
session, same casino, they started reshuffling each hand
soon after I sat down, the dealer saying something about
"boss's orders".

Anyone know how to check if I'm in the book?

And any advice for a rookie player who managed to get himself
in the book so quickly?

You would likely have to have several reports involving big money wagering, or affiliation with a bj team, to make it into the book. And if you were in, it would not cause anyone to notice immediately upon putting your name into the computer. The truth is that simply taking insurance with a max bet out is more likely to get you in trouble than being in the Griffin book. It is generally consulted only after the casino is very suspicious of you already. On the other hand, if you get put out on a SIN flyer then you might get noticed immediately. This usually only has an impact if you had trouble at casinos in the immediate area very recently.

The "possible professional" you heard was probably your imagination. The counter-measures were probably the result of observation of your play.

And any advice for a rookie player who managed to get himself
in the book so quickly?

It it was true then I'd say to keep up the good work. It takes strong, aggressive play to stay ahead over the long term... the same thing it takes to get into the book. The best defense after you are in is to use lots of different names and play lots of different areas. When you've been kicked out everywhere, start back at the beginning with new names and do it again.

>Hello DD:
>Thank you for your note. My replies below aren't meant to argue
>your good points, just thinking through the situation.

You would likely have to have several reports involving big money wagering, or affiliation with a bj team, to make it into the book.
>First, that is what I thought, and part of the reason I was agressive,
> playing without camouflage at the place that eventually barred me.
> When I was in Vegas last time, I read the book "A Card Counter's
> Guide to Casino Surveilance" -- an amazing read.
> And it said that a lot
> more people get in the books than one might suspect, and many of
> them are just recreational players that got noted by overzealous
> non-Nevada casinos (the sort of place that barred me). The book
> also said though that Griffin tends not to put you in without at
> least two notifications or video-tape evidence. On this point it
> was a little vague about the difference between Griffin and SIN.

And if you were in, it would not cause anyone to notice immediately upon putting your name into the computer.
> So if a casino subscribes to the service, they don't do an automatic
> check on new names that come in? I probably would if I were
> in their shoes.

The truth is that simply taking insurance with a max bet out is more likely to get you in trouble than being in the Griffin book. It is generally consulted only after the casino is very suspicious of you already. On the other hand, if you get put out on a SIN flyer then you might get noticed immediately. This usually only has an impact if you had trouble at casinos in the immediate area very recently.
> That SIN scenario might actually apply.

The "possible professional" you heard was probably your imagination. The counter-measures were probably the result of observation of your play.
> I think it may well be my imagination too. But I do have good
> peripheral hearing, and a few times at the place that barred me
> I thought I heard the pit talking about me, but dismissed it as
> imagination caused by over-estimation of my own abilities. I also
> saw the standard measures described in the books -- a phone call,
> and a glance. Two guys, one definitely a casino employee, standing
> outside the pit staring at my play, two times. Once they were so
> obvious two other players at my table talked about them -- what are
> those guys looking at?...
> So when they surprisingly to me barred me, I figured I probably
> heard corectly. The second time I used no id and played only after
> I noted a new pit person, and no one else that knew me. Within about
> 10 minutes, a senior manager replaced the pit guy, and another
> manager together with a security guy loudly called my first name and
> walked me to the cahiers cage.

And any advice for a rookie player who managed to get himself
in the book so quickly?

It it was true then I'd say to keep up the good work. It takes strong, aggressive play to stay ahead over the long term... the same thing it takes to get into the book. The best defense after you are in is to use lots of different names and play lots of different areas.
> When I go to a new casino, and the pit pressures me to get a player
> card -- If I give them a business card rather than a drivers license,
> will that be accepted, or will that in itself engender suspicion?

> Is the only way to actually check Griffin or SIN to go through a
> casino employee?

When you've been kicked out everywhere, start back at the beginning with new names and do it again.

I, too, am interested in HOW you get a player's card in a name other than your own WITHOUT giving the casino a driver's license or government I.D.

I have always been asked for a driver's license, beforehand. The legality of a fake I.D. isn't worth the risk, so what's the answer? Anyone?

first, your format is confusing because the > signs usually indicate the portion that is being quoted. It makes it appear that the quoted portion is your text.

Difference between Griffin book and SIN: The old Griffin "book" does not really exist as it used to. It is now on a computer data base and can be accessed more easily. This will probably lead to a lowering of the threshold needed to get put in. There are also Griffin Gold alerts that go out to subscribers that is more of an immediate notification. The SIN is also an immediate sort of thing. The effect is usually not long lasting but it can ruin a trip. For example, if you are in Vegas for a week and go out on the SIN on day 2, it may be hard for you to get a game the rest of your planned trip. It is a signal going out to member casinos, usually in the same area, that a certain player is making the rounds now and that you should watch for him. While the effect is strong it is not long lasting. If you return to town two months later you are probably okay as this flyer is not current and is at the bottom of the pile if the paper copy is still kept at all. They are mostly quickly checking the new stuff and these notifications are often kept in a drawer in the pit as well as being available for quick view to the eye.

Checking Griffin records is usually done when the casino has not received any flyer on an individual and he is exhibiting possible signs of card counting. Of course, at small joints they may check anyone who appears to be a much bigger player than their usual crowd. They know their casino is a joke and that legitimate high rollers probably wouldn't want to play in the dump, thus they are suspicious of all big action.

No automatic reference is made to a Griffin book for new players cards. This would be a rediculous waste of time and turn up many more false positives than accurate makes. For nearly every card counter in the book there will be dozens of non-advantage players with the same name... unless it is a very uncommon name. Players who are a threat and are listed in the books use lots of different names. The casino generally has to go through pictures looking for the suspect.

you'll know the answer. This is usually not discussed here as it only alerts casinos to holes in the system and makes things more difficult. Travel the country, play strong, and get barred everywhere under your real name. This should take nearly two years. By then you'll probably have contacts.

"By the time you need the answer, you'll know the answer."

-I heard that once before in a Zen monastary ...LOL.

So far, given the one place that barred me, it does apply.
They identify me by sight so an alternative name (I don't like
to say "false") would be of no help.

The kamikaze approach -- play with real name until everyplace
bars you -- doesn't sit well with me (partly because the added
travel cost would strain the bankroll I want to use). But if that's
the only real option, then banzaii!

Thanks for your further info on Griffin and SIN -- that can be helpful.

I always here the advice of not showing any ID while being barred. How do you cash in your chips or will they keep your chips if you
refuse to show ID? Can you leave with your chips and cash them later
or ask someone to cash them for you later?

... except for CTR purposes. If you look young, and they ask for ID to verify your age, you have the option of leaving without showing it.

Casino employees frequently lie, claiming that you "must" show them ID under the law. There is no such law in Nevada, and I doubt if there is such a law anywhere. What sometimes gets them to quickly back down is politely asking them for their ID -- personal ID, like they're asking from you, not their company name tag.

I always hear the advice of not showing any ID while being barred. How do you cash in your chips or will they keep your chips if you refuse to show ID?

If they refuse to cash your chips, ask them for the name of the casino employee who is taking the responsibility for refusing to cash them, so you can notify Gaming. Start calling Gaming on your cell phone right in front of them. That will usually be all that you have to do.

It is rare that they will try to outright steal your chips ("keep" them). Again, Gaming Control or even the local police would probably be worth calling, since this would be theft, a felony in most jurisdictions.

Can you leave with your chips and cash them later or ask someone to cash them for you later?

Yes. This is sometimes the wisest choice, depending on the individual circumstances. Or, depending on the denomination of the chips, cash them elsewhere.

Do not let casino goons bully you. If everyone stood up for their rights, there would be even more lawsuits aginst casinos for their frequent illegal actions, and enough jury awards would finally make the head honchos take notice. Large money awards are the only thing they understand.

like red to low green then even with a virtual kamakaize approach you won't get many backoffs except at the sweat joints.

It is rare that they will try to outright steal your chips ("keep" them). Again, Gaming Control or even the local police would probably be worth calling, since this would be theft, a felony in most jurisdictions.

Do not let casino goons bully you. If everyone stood up for their rights, there would be even more lawsuits aginst casinos for their frequent illegal actions, and enough jury awards would finally make the head honchos take notice. Large money awards are the only thing they understand.

...this is all 'bout as powerful as a popcorn fart in the middle of a war zone. War zone being Indian land and their casinos. They get to do anything they want, however they want. We have very little rights while on their land. But it's still good advise regardless.

I think the Griffin Co. should start having to defend some lawsuits from the people they put in the so-called "book",computer system or whatever. A good sharp attorney should be able pierce through and rip their azzes off.

We need to unite on dealing with these type of problems. Class action lawsuits may be something to consider.

All 21 players should publicly force the issue or forfeit their right to complain. As I have stated many times, billboards on the strip directing the public to detailed websites and passing out thousands of flyers detailing what really goes on will be requred to make the game fair again. WHINING WON'T GET IT DONE. What fun we could have! How about if LV Bear is in charge of the organizing committee? I would agree to a small fee each month to join the effort. We could even sell sponsorship adverising on our site by worthwhile casinos!

So LVBear, whatdaya think?

Agree Stealth:

In my case I think DD is right and I'm probably not in
Griffin. But it is a potential possibility for all counters.

And what might be the peripheral consequences of being registered
next to cheats and thieves (for our entirely legal activity that
is nothing more than skillful play)?

For instance probably some types of non-casino employers also
use Griffin. Are some BJ players thus denied possible jobs,
security clearances, etc. for being in Griffin?

The Griffin book states right at the front of it (I have an old copy) that no person is ever to be told that they are being evicted, denied employment, etc, because of being listed in the Griffin book. No person should ever be told that they are in the book or any reference made to it.

My guess is that Griffin knows full well how illegal their entire business is and wants to limit exposure to possible law suits.

My guess is that Griffin knows full well how illegal their entire business is and wants to limit exposure to possible law suits.

You make it sound as if they are worried because their attorney's know there's a way they can be had. I have always felt that what they're doing is a possible defamation of the character of the people who are in it.

Do we the public have a right to know who all is in the book? Is there a way to find out if I am in there? It's LAWSUIT TIME if I'm in it.

Any legal guru's want chime in with their insite or comments?

"The Griffin book states right at the front of it (I have an old copy) that no person is ever to be told that they are being evicted, denied employment, etc, because of being listed in the Griffin book."

-I read that in D.V. Cellini's recent book. It actually scared me
because it seems to imply "no one should ever be TOLD...", in other
words, fire them but tell them a different reason.

By the way, D.D. is kind of similar to D.V. ...? Just thought I'd
drum up some possible conspiracy here ;)

it is quite common for them to demand ID for cashouts of 3K or more. While LV casinos are required to request it for this amount they are only required to obtain it when totals exceed 10K. Indian casions don't know the difference between a suggestion and a requirement and you generally have no appeal to anything other than the "tribal gaming commission". It is good to get advice from other players who play similar stakes and are familiar with a particular Indian property before getting into a risky situation with them.

At the bigger properties on reservations they generally have an outside management firm which respects normal rules of procedure.