everyone should read this

I've been reading the messages on this board for quite some time and with a very few exeptions is a total waste of time.
I am very sure that anyone on this board would appreciate some valuable information from a long time player who is a WINNER.
Is there any such person??? who is being playing BJ for years and can be honest enough to share his experience and his mistakes so we can only learn from a winner.
Many times I asked casino personel if in their 10,20 years experience
know anyone who has been a winner and the answer is NO.
How about the experts such as Don Schlesinger or Stanford Wong,have they made money overall from gambling in BJ or they loosers as the rest of us,and now try to sell books or creat web side in order to make a living.
I am not trying to underestimate their expertise on BJ but if this game is beatable as the say over the long run I would like to hear their story and how much money they made over the years.I also would like to hear about their mistakes as players so everyone else will benefit.
Of course I understand they will never say BJ is not a beatable game because nobody will buy their books and nobody will visit again their web page. But if they made and still are a living from gambling, and they want to help others by teaching them how to beat the casinos then we want to hear an honest and sincere answer to BJ game.

"Many times I asked casino personel if in their 10,20 years experience know anyone who has been a winner and the answer is NO."

Right. But, they keep throwing out counters every day, because they figure, what the hell, the guy's a loser, but I'll toss him anyway, just for the sport of it.

"How about the experts such as Don Schlesinger or Stanford Wong, have they made money overall from gambling in BJ or they loosers as the rest of us,"

Just losers, like the rest of you. Neither of us has ever made a dime playing the game.

"and now try to sell books or creat web side in order to make a living."

Yup, that's me. Right again. I've made about $12,000 royalties in 4.5 years of book sales. That's a decent living, wouldn't you say? And, I've made exactly $0.00 for my Web site.

Thank you for your enlightening comments. We're all richer for your contribution.

Don

who consistently play for around the same stakes for many years are winners. But many players begin to overbet their good fortune when things go well for a short period. A negative fluctuation at the higher stakes wipes out all their previous gains.

I don't think winners are rare. Most of the card counters I know are lifetime winners. Where is it that you play that most counters are losers? Why is it that you assume that most of the readers of this page are losers?

Depends on your motives. If you think you'll make money, fuhgeddaboudit. If you have some interesting things to say, and you don't mind putting in a lot of time for something that has virtually zero chance of being lucrative, what the hell! Take a shot.

Don

based on the writing pattern, this is a familiar poster to whom English is a second language, with a new handle.

But z, if it makes you feel better, I'm a very part time player who plays for fun. I enjoy knowing I have a long term edge. Unfortunately, I haven't made it into the long run yet. After close to 150 hours of recorded play, I'm down about 25 units. If you factor in free orange juice and coke, and the occasional buffet, I'm probably about even.

hi Don,

i'm a new counter (three months now) and i only have 5 books on BJ, but your's is one of my favorites. thanks for writing it. much of it is over my head, but i've gotten a lot out of it and i'm learning. most of all, it's taught me how to think through bj problems.

if you're not too busy, i'd like your advice on a recent concern of mine. i'm here in europe playing under odd conditions--extremely strict rules but absolutely no heat. an odd combination. i can get away with any bet spread (that i can afford) and i wong-in and out at will. unfortunately, i'm limited to two hands and usually the second hand is a back-bet. since i only backbet on high counts (hi-lo of +3), i was wondering how bad a player has to be for me to not make a profit riding him/her. i ran a simulation for the last two days and results confirm my experiences--in my experiences, i've been making money riding poor players at high counts. i'd appreciate it if you could take a look at the numbers on the BJ misc page, computer simulation of backbetting.

i programmed a lousy player who only plays +3 or higher counts. the lousy player makes money anyway, and not that much less than the basic strategy player. with no heat and high counts, i think i'm justified in backbetting these poor players. i pick players that aren't that bad (they are all better than the one i used in my simulation). would you back-bet such a player with a true count of, say, +5?

thanks again for sharing your research and results.
toecheese

Your post makes it rather obvious that you have not read the BJ player's bible. Oh wait, you don't know what that is, do you? Look up Thorpe's "Beat the Dealer". It's the root of most legitimate BJ counting systems. If you can understand Thorpe, then you will see how silly your post is.

I am not surprise of your responce,maybe you took it very personal.
I was only looking for some sound advice together with some proof from someone who has made it from gambling BJ.
Everybody can claim to be a winner,(ref response "I think" by RedAces)
but I am not interesting on that,I play very serious money and when I read the comments of Peter Buchman,the general manager of Gambler's Book Club in Las Vegas then I have second thoughts.
He write's on December 17,2000 subject on becoming a professional gambler as follows:"We've seen hundreds of counters come and go through the doors of our bookstore.We only know a couple who made serious money" The web-site is www.lasvegas.com.
I never said card counters don't have an edge.I just want it to hear from someone who made serious money over the years and how he made it.

Thanks for the history lesson,I think you try to tell me to read the book "Beat the Dealer" by Edward O' Thorp,I think first version was printed in 1962.

How many kids playing basketball in high school want to make it in the NBA? How many ever play a game as a pro? How many even get a college scholarship?

Out of the number of high school graduates who apply to college for the first time, wanting to someday be medical doctors, what percentage ever become practicing physicians?

For those who set out to become pro bj players, the odds are a little better. But, for most people, such a decision would not be a good choice even if they had the skills, the bankroll, and the temperamant for it. There are at least a dozen on this site that I know of. I'm sure there are others I don't know of. If you have never seen any post then you are not a long time frequent reader here and are certainly not on greenchip.

i programmed a lousy player who only plays +3 or higher counts. the lousy player makes money anyway, and not that much less than the basic strategy player. with no heat and high counts, i think i'm justified in backbetting these poor players.

I am afraid this is indeed not the case. A standard player in Europe is so bad, that a 1.5% advantage or so with TC +3 is wiped away. It is not that hard indeed. It is enough if one keeps standing hard 16 vs. 7 and similar...

It definitely is not that valuable to spread to two hands for such a price, even if the other player was not that bad. Just play one hand (with higher bet). Besides, you can probably play two hands, and occasionally drop to one hand on negative counts.

Karel

Before I'd backbet on someone who plays poorly, I'd have to have watched him long enough to determine the cost of his errors. And then, in all likelihood, I wouldn't wager a nickel on his hands! :-)

Don

I understand that English is not your native language, and I accept your apology. But, the manner in which you went about asking your question was very accusatory in tone, and wasn't likely to prompt any serious responses from readers.

You can win money counting cards without being a professional, which, by definition means that this will be the manner in which you earn your living.

I have frequently advised against doing this, as have many others.

Don

Its none of my business how much money these authors have made gambling. All thats important is that the advice is mathematically solid and then finding a way to incorporate it into the real world. I would like to say i personally doubt these authors are the biggest winners at the tables(in terms of dollars).Dont misunderstand me however i am not saying that i dont think these individuals havent nade a sizeable sum playing blackjack. I would think the biggest winners are people you and i have never heard of and never will hear of but they use the same basic mathematical principles to beat the game.

Well,

One way to put the comment by Peter Buchman to rest is this. I go to the Gamblers Book Club at least once a week. I have been doing so for about two years on and off. I have never even mentioned that i make any money at blackjack, they think i do it all in sports betting. So something tells me i'm not the only one who doesn't feel like telling the guys at the bookstore, not to mention any other person who may be there at the time, exactly how good i do at blackjack. Especially when any pitboss from any casino can go there anytime, doesn't sound like a good idea. This ranks up there with telling a pit boss u are a counter just cause he may ask....CRAZY!!!!

table

Dear Zamais,

1. Could you start spelling that with a J please? My teeth are in pain.

2. There are more people who get to understand the concepts of advantage play in the game of casino Blackjack every day. As a matter of fact, the number of these people has been increasing since Thorp's book exploded to the top of the Best Sellers List in the early 60s.

3. The number of people who are, thusly, winning in the game, and winning consistently has increased. Not all the people who understand can actually be winners but still the number of winners has been increasing. This is my intuitive position, based on the expansion and availability of Blackjack knowledge.

4. The percentage however of those winners as against the total number of players playing casino Blackjack, I submit that it has decreased and has been decreasing ever since the Thorp revolution. My theory is that the more people you have who realize the game's vulnerability and who spread the good word around, the more people you will have getting involved in the game who should not be playing it in the first base - I mean place!..

5. One example of the above corollary is the situation in the ex-Eastern Bloc countries where a huge number of people have been suddenly added to the ranks of Blackjack players, with but a few advantage players among them ("few" because, if anything, they lack adequate practical experience so far).

6. There is a nice exponential function here at work, which may be touching upon the threshold of Chaos - and keeps those champion paranoids, the Casino operators, busy chasing the unwitting shills out of the pits.

--Cyrus

but, he certainly didn't butter the bread the way he asked it. I own BJ Attack, as well as other books by BJ experts, and I am glad the experts publish books. I have learned a lot from the books and websites. In fact, "KO Blackjack" is the book that got me started in counting. I will answer Zamais bluntly--since March of this year I am up 2G. However, I am up $1900 from tourneys, so I am only up $100 from tables. But, I made MASS mistakes in the beginning--went from $900 up to $1200 down to $2000 up to $300 down, now back to 2G up. And this latest upswing is almost ALL table play--the $1900 in tourney wins is what put me at the earlier 2G up. I've learned the hard way on several things. Anyways, without revealing personal info too specifically, I'd be interested in knowing ABOUT, in ballpark terms, how much Don and others have made, in how many years, from BJ play. Bryce Carlson boasts in his book, "Blackjack for Blood", that he leads a Jet-Set lifestyle, flying around the world living a lifestyle of the rich---all from playing BJ. I am skeptical, but won't go so far as to say "hogwash". To Zamais is say this--most of the people here are straight-shooters, and if they want to make a couple extra bucks sharing their knowledge, which no doubt cost THEM money to obtain, then I say "right on".

Potaire

of "serious money". If you're talking millions...you can forget it. My max bet is up to 2x$200 usually...sometimes 2x$300...over the last 12 months I've made about $45,000 playing blackjack and exactly two backoffs.

Thanks for your advice Karel J. I have the same problems
with BJ and counting in Germany.
I had nearly the same ideas as teocheeze, to get an edge
over the casinos.
Rainer