Dice Control is Legal

Frank Scoblete interviewed an executive at the Nevada Gaming Commission which he reported about on his private web site. According to the executive, it is not illegal to try to control the dice because you are given the dice to shoot and you are attempting to win with your roll. How others bet is irrelevant. You just have to obey the casino rules about hitting the back wall and not sliding the dice.

Dice control is therefore legal. That does not mean that the casinos might want to change the rules but Scoblete also reported that the casinos in Vegas had a 26 percent increase in craps profits the last quarter. That must mean more people are playing the game now that they thnk it can be beaten.

The casinos would be foolish to institute changes when the money is rolling in.

I also found an interesting article from the Cigar Aficionado from 1993 where Scoblete discusses his belief in controlled shooting and talks about the "Arm," the best controlled shooter he ever saw. Her exploits were in the 1980s. Scoblete was the first to see the potential of this advantage play and wrote about it in his first articles and books. It's nice to see that others are now discovering what he has known for a long time. Craps can be beaten.

Nevada Statute on cheating says: NRS 465.015 Definitions.

As used in this chapter:

1. �Cheat� means to ALTER (caps added) the elements of chance, method of selection or criteria which determine:

(a) The result of a game;

(b) The amount or frequency of payment in a game;

(c) The value of a wagering instrument; OR (not and)

(d) The value of a wagering credit.

2. The words and terms defined in chapter 463 of NRS have the meanings ascribed to them in that chapter.

(Added to NRS by 1981, 1292; A 1993, 830; 1995, 1502)

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A reasonable argument may be that the dicethrower is not altering the machinery of the game (marked cards, crooked dice, rigged slot machine), but don't know how that will go. In any case the reason for my concern is the excessive penalties Nevada gives to those convicted of cheating. The penalties (plus legal fees) are:

NRS 465.088 Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive.

1. A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:

(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.

(b) For a second or subsequent violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.

2. A person who attempts, or two or more persons who conspire, to violate any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, each is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished by imposing the penalty provided in subsection 1 for the completed crime, whether or not he personally played any gambling game or used any prohibited device.

(Added to NRS by 1981, 1292; A 1985, 970; 1995, 1295)

This was all gone over by Frank Scoblete with the Nevada Commission. The use of dice control was found not to be illegal.

that the NGC would never change their minds on this matter. Once casinos start losing money to dice setters watch them get dice setting declared cheating and thus illegal. Anything that messes with the random quality of a casino game could be interpreted as being cheating if the powers that be so choose. Of course, you can always get yourself roughed up by casino security for dice setting and win a big fat six figure settlement from a bleeding heart jury. That is what's known as the "new advantage play".

Of course, you can always get yourself roughed up by casino security for dice setting and win a big fat six figure settlement from a bleeding heart jury.

It was nice to see the "bleeding heart jury" send a message that the abuse of skilled players by casino goons will no longer be tolerated. This type of award was long overdue. I commend the jury for having the courage to do the right thing, and stand up to the bullies.

By the way, it was a verdict, and now a judgment, not a "settlement." Casinos have gotten used to being able to negotiate "settlements" of low five-figures for their abuse of patrons -- chump change for the casinos. Congratulations to Mr. Grosjean and Mr. Nersesian for taking the Imperial Palace case all the way to the jury, and not settling privately. It is only through public exposure and large awards that such disgusting actions of casinos can be stopped.

plus imprisonment, lawyer fees, etc.etc.

But you say there is no need for concern as we can rely on Frank Scoblete and the non existence of overzealous prosecutors or casino owner influence on the Nevada courts, legislature, and politicians. I feel reassured. Thank you.

This was nothing but another example of lawyers gone wild. Some guy writes a book explaining how to cheat (ie break the law) and then actually goes into a casino and cheats (and yes I do believe that hole carding is cheating but lord knows what else he was doing that day). This whole incident looks like a set-up from the start... instigate a situation that you know is going to lead where it did and then run out and hire some greasy lawyer to confuse the hell out of a bunch of boobs who got forced into jury duty when they'd rather be home watching Jerry Springer. It wouldn't be the first idiotic result that occured in a courtroom. But I have to admit that it's a lot easier to scam 300 large out of a casino in a courtroom than to do it at the tables so maybe I'm the sucker here.

I suppose that "card counting" is also cheating? If a player is supposed to keep his eyes closed if a dealer is flashing unintentionally, I suppose he should keep his eyes closed as all cards are dealt so that he can't count them and also "cheat" the casino...

I think you are confusing dealer incompetence with player cheating. They are not the same thing. Now if a player and dealer work in collusion to make money by the dealer flashing to the player he is working with, then yes, that would be "cheating". But not what JG was doing, IMHO...

This was nothing but another example of lawyers gone wild. Some guy writes a book explaining how to cheat (ie break the law) and then actually goes into a casino and cheats (and yes I do believe that hole carding is cheating but lord knows what else he was doing that day).

You are either joking or simply unwilling to acknowledge the obvious truth. Hole carding is a perfectly legal form of advantage play, as long as it is not done in collusion with a dishonest dealer. How can using your eyes and brain be cheating? From the tone of your comments, I imagine that you think card counting is cheating, too. That�s just plain silly. Or maybe any use of the brain on casino property is cheating.

The Nevada Supreme Court, hardly known as a defender of players' rights, found hole carding (and signaling to a partner playing at the table) to be perfectly legal in the Einbinder/Dalben case way back in 1984. (Nevada Supreme Court case number 15797, opinion filed 12/18/1984).

This whole incident looks like a set-up from the start... instigate a situation that you know is going to lead where it did �

Again, you must be joking. Mr. Grosjean was not even playing in the Imperial Palace. He was physically assaulted by gun-toting thugs, kidnapped, threatened, and held against his will. The guards should be in the penitentiary. Because of the corrupt criminal system in Nevada, they were not even charged with their crimes, and walked away scot-free without even being arrested. One of them testified at the trial that he was not even disciplined by his employer, the IP. Outrageous! That alone should be enough to award large punitive damages against IP for its disgusting behavior.

By your rationale, if I don�t like someone -- say my next-door neighbor -- I should be able to hire some thugs to walk over to intimidate him (with guns plainly visible in the thugs� holsters), physically attack him, handcuff him, remove him forcibly to a secret room, threaten further violence against him, go through his pockets, go through his wallet, write down personal information such as his Social Security number, and hold him for 47 minutes before releasing him. This is exactly what the creeps employed by Imperial Palace did. But my hired thugs and I would probably be looking at some prison time, as well we should be. Do you think there is any substantial difference between what the IP guards did and what my hypothetical thugs did?

The true shame is that the guards were not criminally prosecuted, and that the Imperial Palace was not severely punished by the worthless Nevada Gaming Control Board.

Obviously you know nothing about the case. One wonders where you get your information.

This was nothing but another example of lawyers gone wild. Some guy writes a book explaining how to cheat (ie break the law) and then actually goes into a casino and cheats (and yes I do believe that hole carding is cheating but lord knows what else he was doing that day). This whole incident looks like a set-up from the start... instigate a situation that you know is going to lead where it did and then run out and hire some greasy lawyer to confuse the hell out of a bunch of boobs who got forced into jury duty when they'd rather be home watching Jerry Springer. It wouldn't be the first idiotic result that occured in a courtroom. But I have to admit that it's a lot easier to scam 300 large out of a casino in a courtroom than to do it at the tables so maybe I'm the sucker here.

Err, um, excuse me, but I think that you might be really in need of a good lawyer........

......in order to sue your brains for nonsupport.

What an imbecilic statement you make in your post. And BTW, would you mind telling us all the name of the casino that you are employed by?

Because you sure as hell ain't working for the Boy Scouts.

Hey guys, don't argue or reason with an *sshole because ... you'll find out why after reading this quote:

One day, there was a discussion among the body parts of the human being.
The brain, the leg, the arms were in deep discussion on who is to be the Boss.

The brain was the first to claim the title and he substantiated his claim as
thus. I am the brain, I think and I plan for the success of every movements

in the body, as well as monetary gains So I should be the Boss.
The legs has this to say.

I carry the whole body with you the brain as well. So the Boss should

be me.
The arms too has their say.

Without me doing all the donkey works, you are nothing, So I should be

the Boss.
The three body parts were deep in arguments as to who should be the Boss.
Out of nowhere, the asshole came and lay claim to the title. I should be the
Boss.
All the three body parts look at it and started to laugh. What !!, you asshole
dare to claim the title ???
They laugh and they laugh at the top of their voices.
The asshole looked at them and sighed. Just you wait and see. I am going to
show you why I sholuld be the Boss.
The asshole striked, by preventing and blocking everything through it.
After a few days, the brain began to feel dizziness and there were sever headaches. The legs began to be weak, fibbled and numbed, while the hands began to shake. This wenton for another few days
Then the asshole said. Well, look here, I am the Boss, right ??
The brain, the legs and the arms, all cried out with acknowledgement that
the asshole is the Boss.

The moral of the story is: The *sshole is an idiot. Never argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!

Is it legal for a BJ player to place his/her eyes down at just above the top of the table for the purpose of trying to see the hole card, while also without using any kind of helpful devise?