dealers changing penetration after a good shoe

Perhaps my memory has slipped, but have we not gone down similar roads with Richard before?

It also has made me think about an inequity within the system that possibly breeds the likes of Richard. That is: if a customer is caught actually cheating a casino, that customer goes to jail. If a casino employee is caught cheating a customer, he is perhaps fired, does not lose his gaining licence and has a job waiting for him at another casino. There is something wrong here and it perhaps leaves certain casino employees feeling invulnerable, but I also think Richard is full of it.

At the very least, any casino employee who advocates cheating players should be barred from this site and any others that derive their income from advantage players.

I think it is helpful for players to see that there are dealers like this out there. It helps put things into perspective, and may help some newbies form a strict NO TIPPING policy. Every time I read such a post by Richard, it reinforces my own NO TIPPING policy.

I went back and read that Dec 2004 post. This Richard seems like a bad apple.
It only reenforces my position to never toke.

It`s not possible for any dealer to shuffle track. Simple as that. Even if you can map the shuffle, what good will it do? You`ll have to remember counts in different segments of the discard and then when you`ll be breaking down the cut offs and inserting them into discards, you may not miss by much. Can you really do this while standing directly above the discard tray? I don`t know what your pick size is, but let`s say 3/4. With 1.5 decks cut off, can you really keep 6 separate counts while playing, paying and adding up hands?

There are some casinos which use a simple one-pass shuffle, and I could see a dealer tracking part of them. He may know that a segment of high cards is at the front, or he may know that a segment is at the back. It would be possible to determine that without getting a good view of the discard tray.

Richard�s program requires giving the cards to a player who has a standard way of cutting. This would likely be a player who either always cuts close to the front, or cuts close to the back. So these are the only parts that Richard would care about.

However, so far as I know, Richard�s store uses a two-pass shuffle, which is not that simple. I think one pass has a step-ladder. The contents of the front and back segments would be significantly diluted this way.

Second, I don�t think there are that many players whose cuts a predictable. You won�t get a large sample of their cutting, unless they come every day. This part is not very credible.

I have to question whether or not Richard is actually a dealer. The problem is that his posts here have done much to discredit the entire dealing profession. I think it is very unfair to dealers; I have know some dealers who are toke-hustling jerks, but the majority of them are nice, reasonable people. I think Richard is giving the whole lot a bad name.

Thinks about this. If somebody were on a mission to discredit dealers, what type of posts would he/she put up? Do you think they would be like Richard�s ?

Maybe Richard has a grudge against dealers. Maybe his girlfriend left him for a dealer or something. It would explain a lot.

Whatever Richard is, I would never give him the power to sway my opinions of dealers. As others, I have met dealers who were complete jerks and I would not give a cent too. At the same time I have family who have or are dealers and have a couple of people who once dealt as close friends. They are people, some nice some nasty and in my opinion few like Richard.

.. to classify all of any group, based on the actions of a few, is obviously short-sighted.

Personally I believe Richard does deal cards, that his is not some elaborate scheme to somehow get back at someone or something that may have wronged him in the past.

Like many card counters over estimate their ability, I believe Richard most likely over estimates his ability to consistently bring harm to the non-tipping counter he would like to punish.

As with many things, fantasy in imagining is always more grand than the reality of what takes place. While the moves Richard speaks about are possible, effectively and consistently implementing them, unnoticed, to the player and the pit, is another matter.

Richard's motivation should be to earn more money for his employer and more money for himself. If that is what it is, there are more effective ways to accomplish that end. But if you are Walter Mitty .. it's not near as much fun.

as team members. They were all productive for many years. One is now dead and the other two are still professional players. My brother, also a card counter, married a blackjack dealer. Lots of them are okay.

For a reason that's related to LVBear's.

You can dislike/dismiss someone's point of view, but that doesn't mean it's not valid for them. I can learn by viewing the world through another person's eyes, no matter how much I may dislike they way they see the world. That doesn't mean that I have to see the world their way after I'm done looking through their eyes.

As for Richard's claim of shuffle tracking, he may be a fraud but, on the other hand, if I were interested and handled cards for 8 hours a day, I think I could become pretty proficient at shuffle tracking. With regard to the dilution of slugs, to say that I wouldn't be able to track slug implicitly assumes "correct" riffles and strips - if I did it 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for a period of time, I feel confident in saying that I could do a riffle that would pass unnoticed but would not dilute a slug in the same way as a "true" riffle. Same for a strip. As for the player cut, I know I cut the same way every time, and say the same stupid superstitious little saying, and I've noticed that a lot of people cut the same place every time.

So it really wouldn't be that hard, and it would be pretty much undetectible. Would I do it? If I'm seeing the world through a dealer's eyes and someone was a big enough jerk and I was having a bad enough day, well..I'm not going to have the opportunity. But I'm going to keep the memory of that for when I play.

I was going to let this thread slide, but no longer. It's not in most players interest to think that a dealer has the capability to do what you write (highlighted below) while dealing. So this is one less concern that a player may think about as to a potential reason why they may experience natural, but negative fluctuations, i.e., losses.

This is just another incarnation of blackjack voodoo. If a dealer is going to cheat, there are easier ways to do it.

if I were interested and handled cards for 8 hours a day, I think I could become pretty proficient at shuffle tracking. With regard to the dilution of slugs, to say that I wouldn't be able to track slug implicitly assumes "correct" riffles and strips - if I did it 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for a period of time, I feel confident in saying that I could do a riffle that would pass unnoticed but would not dilute a slug in the same way as a "true" riffle. Same for a strip.

Again, no way, no how.

But you're entitled to your opinion.
bfb

Do you believe Richard is really a dealer?

I ask because his signals are mixed.

Would a dealer go to such lengths to cheat players, even if they are not tipping? because who is to say the player(s) won't toss a generous tip when they leave the table. I've seen that many times. If I were losing badly, or if I suspected something fishy, I'd hardly have much incentive to tip period.

Is it likely that a dealer would actually be able to develop shuffle-tracking skills just by dealing? I've done some of it and it was not that easy to figure out even the simple shuffle that I attacked. And I could not have done it with normal cards, dealing to real players.

If a dealer did learn to track, would he not take this to _another_ casino and practice the art from the player's side where such a skill could actually make him some money, as opposed to practicing it from the dealer's side where all it could do is potentially lose him his dealer's card???

This all sounds like something beyond fiction, IMHO.

First question's answer is yes.
Second question's answer is yes. A cheating dealer, or at least one that wants a player(s) to lose, doesn't necessarily do that because of money [to them], as much as it is [lost] money to the player. In other words, they can be just as petty, vindictive, jealous, etc. as the next person.

Haven't you come across people who are on power trips? Of course you [we] have. To think that there aren't dealers who have bad dispositions, hate life, people, and are generally happy when others aren't, hasn't spent much time in the real world of life. This is not to say that there aren't good people who happen to be dealers, or hold other positions in a casino, as there are nice and good people in all walks of life. It just means that there are people who use the rationalization that your money is somehow their money, just because you happen to be playing games of chance and they're the ones managing the game.

The casinos earn more than enough money to provide adequate compensation without dealers requiring player tips for their sustenance. Dealers should redirect their angst against their employer, just like every other worker has from the beginning of time when they have felt underpaid. Imagine, if you will, that college professors, if they felt the university was underpaying them, choosing to lobby their students for additional money. Does that happen? Or how about the waiter at a fine restaurant, adding an additional 20% onto your meal that goes into their pocket first without the restaurant owner knowing. And one final example, the checkout clerks at your local supermarket decides to charge each customer prior to checkout an additional fee (due to their employer underpaying them) and if you want your groceries, it will cost 10% more.

Of course, those above examples are ludicrous, nor would they be tolerated, by anyone. Somehow, the casinos have successfully convinced dealers, that the players should be partly responsible for their wages. How ridiculous is that!

When I have losing sessions that total in the thousands, I've never had a casino dealer reach into that tip jar, and give me a rebate. Hell, I'm made to feel like a begger when requesting comps (that is part of their promotional budgets) for meeting my end of their implied (4 hrs per day of x dollars) deal as part of my allowing them an opportunity to win my money. And if I lose, at any time, if they decide to, to revoke those very same earned comps if they suspect that I have the necessary skills to, oh my god, have the audacity of potentially being a......WINNER!

Dealers bitching about tips or lack of tips is just utterly outrageous! It just so happens that I'm a fair tipper. Kinda like Steve Martin in the movie, "My Blue Heaven." "I tip everybody." However, I don't tip when I'm losing, and especially when I'm losing big. But I do tip, but not enough to affect my eV, still, I tip. Every time I come across a dealer who is an asshole, begging for tokes, is generally sarcastic, and unpleasant, or who is noticeably a house dealer, they get nothing from me. The cocktail waitresses make more money in tips from me than most dealers. And to piss me off, like they have over the years, has cost them far more than they'll ever know.

All in all, dealer jobs aren't the most pleasant, and standing and dealing for the hours they do, interacting with the public (which also isn't a walk in the park), under threat of job security (or hasshole pit personnel etc., ) and under constant surveillance day in and day out, isn't a job that would make it on my personal "wants list" in life. All they have to do is be pleasant, and efficient. That's not much to ask. It is what's asked of everyone who has to deal with the public for a living.

Third question's answer is simply, no, of course not.
Fourth question's answer is also simple, of course he would.

And there is an area 51 too! :-)

cheers
The End.
bfb

The casinos earn more than enough money to provide adequate compensation without dealers requiring player tips for their sustenance ... somehow, the casinos have successfully convinced dealers, that the players should be partly responsible for their wages. How ridiculous is that!

The casinos earn enough money to adequately compensate every service industry employee on their property without needing tips. Why do you think the 'dealers' should be any different?

You know I'm a long way from full-time, but I tip selectively, if nothing else, and for lack of a better concept, out of my disposable income.

I can already hear the heavy-weight bankrolls chiming in about how tipping dealers is negative EV. Buulll shit. Pardon me, but you guys are not a whole lot different than any other self-employed dude trying to scratch out a living .. and for some, the ROR you are playing to is way less than that guy fresh over here from Vietnam running the corner deli. You want to talk about ROR, try bucking WalMart if your selling soap and shoe polish for a living. ROR is swimming the Red River just to get a job.

Tipping is a cost of doing business. Or it's money coming out of your disposable income. Either way, not tipping .. because of guys like Richard, or because it is negative EV .. seems to me to be a hollow and convienent excuse to be cheap.

[Sorry fellas. Got a little carried away there. Started to leave off the 'to be cheap' part but you knew where it was going anyway.]

By the way, BFB, congrats on being a tipper. But why only on winning sessions? You probably have your annual EV, and the ROR you plan to encounter, penciled out for the next five years. I'd divide my expected tips on the winning session .. in half .. and spread the cheer around a little.

But that's just me.

P.S. .. Richard, if I run into you .. no tips bud. I'm saving mine for someone who might appreciate them.