card counting for a beginner

Her question was:

Could you kindly advise me whether to learn Golden Touch, or hi-low, or perhaps something else??

A balanced, easy count that allocates the betting appropriately and transports to segment following would seem best. This would seem to suggest Dubner's, or perhaps Uston's, High-Low.

Note that Bootlegger didn't cite his own archive: www.bj21.com/bj_reference/pages/10580.html. But, then, perhaps his book elaborates upon this subject.

I had forgotten about that particular archived post. Thanks for reminding me. :-)

My main motivation was being crap at proper work. I developed a deep loathing of all the back-biting, hierarchical bullshit, and servility you tend to get in the workplace.
The main bonus of being an AP to me is the freedom. The money helps, but, once past the stage where my bankroll was constantly being eaten by expenses, it became much less important. I'd rather live on 40K pa as a gambler rather than 200k pa as an office worker-though in truth, you can reverse those figures when it comes to average earnings and comparative labour time.

What about you? Sounds like you have an interesting take on this issue, possibly because of personal experience?

Thank you all for the responses posted--I really appreciate them. At present, I do not have a job, but instead play poker professionally for a living. While I have only been doing this for over a year, I have been doing very well, and as such, I am considering a move to a town near Atlantic City so I can play more consistently. Currently, I live in NYC, which I LOVE, but I can sell my co-op, and use the funds to buy a house in NJ, and hopefully make more money there.

In regards to blackjack, I know basic strategy, and use it to play occasionally. If I am to live near over a dozen casino's, I would like to be able to profit from blackjack as well, which is why I had asked about counting methods. Hi-low seems to be the winner amongst all of you, but has anyone ever tried the Golden Touch system? Is it too good to be true? Has anyone profited by using that system? Thanks again to everyone for their input, it is very appreciated.

I nominate your post for POM on the Free Board.:)

The Kevin Blackwood book, "The Counter," documents this kind of personality very accurately. I just finished it last night. It helps to have extreme patience and a strong moral background to be able to survive the highs and lows and avoid many destructive temptations.

Not touched upon a lot in these boards, but a strong cardio-vascular system strengthened with constant exercise like running is important to be able to deal with the physical and mental stresses of traveling and gambling with or without an advantage.

The ease of use of the KO system makes it more practical to play long enough to make money without blowing a mental fuse or turning red-faced because the dealer is going too fast. I would venture that most people on these boards would recommend high-low or other balanced count systems, as the KO players are too busy playing and making money to enter into such technical discussions. I am taking a break myself before I hit and run some more casinos in my new area.

As a level 1 system (card values of 1, -1, and 0), the KO system claims that it is the easiest to apply in real-world situations. It takes advantage of the imbalance in the # 7 (6 small cards vs. 5 big ones) to keep track of the number of cards played and generate betting decisions. According to Page 53 of Knock-Out Blackjack by Vancura and Fuchs, the removal of the 7 from a single deck adds +0.30% expectation in favor of the player while removal of a 2 adds +0.40%. The unbalanced approach accounts for removal of 7's, a card detrimental to the player (just ask Ihate17), while the balanced approach does not count 7's.

If you believe in the accuracy of the Simulation Results on pages 157 through 159 of KO Blackjack, the KO system has a slightly higher expectation (more income) than high-low and keeps up with the level 2 systems within .05 out of 1%. So, in summary, with the KO system, you can have better results than high-low and you give up 95% of the headache of a level 2 system for only 5% of the income expectation. If you memorize the KO "full" matrix and the marginal play strategies (KO Complete), your expectation would be even higher for the same "simple" counting effort. Since the KO system is one of the easiest to accurately implement, it has an overall advantage over the other systems.

Poker should be your main game

I went the other way.

If you calculate your bankroll size required for the same win, if you have a feel for the absurd fluctuation involved in squeezing winning out of an expectation of a less than 1%, statistically, the switch makes little sense.

The decision was made for me by my divorce. After 45% of my life with this woman, I departed with little. She even got my dogs. I could eeck out a living with poker when I couldn't sustain one, single, normal blackjack bad streak. And the game declines every year and it's not going back.

See: http://www.bj21.com/boards/free/free_boards/index.cgi?read=152632

If your anything like me (stubborn), you'll require a personally derived proof. I guarantee you'll get it and I guarantee it won't be cheap.

I know "Sonny" will respond that opportunities have never been better, that there are approaches that exist now that didn't exist in the past. Ask him to prove it.

What happens when a Poker table is full of professionals?
Answer:They lose money to the casino.
What happens when a Blackjack table is full of professionals?
Answer:They win money from the casino.

Francis Salmon

The problem with your analysis is that professionals don't play with professionals. That's what makes them professionals! A table full of professional counters? Amatuers all!
Go out there and look for good poker games. Not hard to find at all. Try the same thing with Blackjack. A week later and you are still out of work.

With my post, I wanted to point my finger to the main difference between Poker and Blackjack. In Poker you play against other players, in Blackjack you play against the house.That means that a Blackjack-Pro who sits down at the table knows for sure that he has positive EV regardless of who else is playing.In Poker, your EV depends not only on your own ability but also on the skill of the other players.
I don't think you can avoid playing against other pros altogether and you will have to share the cake.
So in Poker,it's not enough to be a good player, you have to be an outstanding player in order to make your living.
Therefore the appeal of Nanuck that everybody should switch to poker is out of place.
By the way I have been playing Blackjack professionnally for 8 years now and my earnings are going up, not down.I still find juicy places, even in Europe.
Occasionally,I cannot resist the temptation to sit down at a poker table.But in spite of heaving read a few books on the subject, my results are anything else than promising.

Francis Salmon

...is a misquote. I advised the young lady to consider not switching from poker, which is not the same thing.

Further,

In Poker, your EV depends not only on your own ability but also on the skill of the other players.

Additionally,

So in Poker,it's not enough to be a good player, you have to be an outstanding player in order to make your living.,

I play both blackjack and poker recreationally, and there is definitely an advantage to not being a "one trick pony".

For example, on a busy holiday, when the BJ tables are jammed with ploppies, it will be extremely difficult to find a favorable situation in the pit. However, some of these same ploppies at the BJ tables will also be your most desirable competition in a poker game. On the other hand, there are times of the day when the poker room is barely able to keep one low limit game going, where the skill level of the players who happen to be seated and/or the amount of the rake in proportion to the betting limits is such that even the most skilled player's advantage might be minimal. However, at the times when the poker room is dead, there may also be several unoccupied BJ tables in the pit, enabling an advantage player to go head's up against the dealer and wong in/out from table to table at will.

There are many forms of advantage play, and the most favorable form of advantage play can vary from one situation to the next. It is beneficial to become familiar and proficient with all forms of advantage play to make the best out of every situation.

that's above norm.

RE: The problem with your analysis is that professionals don't play with professionals. That's what makes them professionals! A table full of professional counters? Amatuers all!

When pro bj players outnumber tables, they play with each other. Why I recall a time when I knew only one other player at my (full) table, But some of the others were familiar, and I recognized the styles of play of the remainder; all pros. And at another place I noted the very unusual situation that when a new player came to the table that all the spots were being played by pros and that in that case I knew all of their names. In each case there were no seats at any of the few other bj tables in the club.

RE: Go out there and look for good poker games. Not hard to find at
all. Try the same thing with Blackjack. A week later and you are still
out of work.

Most of the pro poker players I have known were not legally, experiencially, and psychologically able to earn modest income at other pursuits. So they earned low incomes in poker rooms and with those incomes and comps got along. Not even those highest earning pro poker players I have known earned in a week what fairly successful bj players earn in a day. An most of the pro bj players I have known are able to earn at least modest incomes at other pursuits.

Pro poker players I have known have told me that there are many cheats among pro players. I do not want to play with such opponents for I would probably lose to them in spite of their inability o earn much overall. I can find good bj games in short order.

Slot