Hello everyone,
I'm looking to try and become an advantage player. Could you kindly advise me whether to learn Golden Touch, or hi-low, or perhaps something else?? Any input would be greatly appreciated--thanks a lot.
Cardcounting for the Casino Excecutive by Bill Zender explains card counting in the least time. It was intended as a tutorial in counting theory and the application of High-Low for, obviously, casino personnel.
Personally, I'd learn Hilo (Wong's Professional Blackjack). If not, consider KO (Vancura/Fuch's Knock-out Blackjack). Golden Touch has been shown inferior to both.
Read the posts in BJ reference -- the link is at the bottom left-hand corner of this page. Pay particular attention to Coug Fan's Basic advice for new players. Good luck.
While the basic advice for new players seems like very good advice--I have a problem with #2 of Banrkroll Management:
Expect to lose your your entire bankroll amount. Be comfortable with this possibility.
If this statement is correct, why bother learning to count and trying to be an advantage player? I always thought expecting to lose was only for gamblers?
He's only trying to emphasize that you should not risk more than you can afford to lose. You've got to be able to take your entire bankroll, hold it over the toilet, and be able to honestly say to yourself, "it will not hurt me if I flush this."
Otherwise, you'll just be playing with "scared money," making it almost impossible to win because of the effect this has on your morale and your play.
That's the effect of match play coupons. I would like to say these promos are offered because casinos hate to see players lose. I understand Anthony Curtis sells them from time to time in the Las Vegas area. Card counting is anything but sure-fire.
I usually agree with everything LVBear584 recommends, but I REALLY have a problem with trying to: "count down a deck of cards in 30 seconds while driving on the freeway, listening to the radio and having a coherent conversation on the phone."
On the bankroll advice, I guess #2 goes hand in hand with #1. I mean, if "bankroll" means something that is absolutely inconsequential to you, then sure -- I guess you're already prepared to lose it. But honestly, that is not the definition of "bankroll" put forth by any serious gambling theorist I'm aware of.
However, I'm a little uncomfortable with your statement: "I always thought expecting to lose was only for gamblers?" Advantage players do expect to lose, and lose often. They just expect to win a little MORE, and a little more often.
If you're not prepared to accept the possibility of losing, let's say $500 in an evening, and a few thousand dollars on your way to making several thousand dollars, you probably should quit before you start.
Good Luck to you!
ETF
I think the idea about counting while driving on the freeway was written in jest by Coug Fan. But the need to overcome distractions is valid.
ET Fan's points are well-taken. I linked to Coug Fan's post because it was a quick way to get the basic message across to a new player that starting out is not as easy as some might like to believe, and that winning in the short term is certainly not "guaranteed."
You need to study and prepare well in advance of actually going into a casino to play. I would suggest that you start out with my book, Bootlegger's 200 Proof Blackjack, and move on from there. It was designed specifically for folks like yourself. You can get it here from the catalog.
Don't stop there. The books in the catalog here are all worth reading. A subscription to Green Chip is also worthwhile. The archives alone are worth the price.
Forget about learning what to bet and play your hands. It means nothing for now. Too many books focus on the what and not the why. Blackjack is a game for a person who is financially secure, has some odd nonconformist will (whether competent or incompetent) on making money, and has no social life what to speak of. I know I am going to piss a few people off here saying this, but they are either ignorant or in denial. You should be of the type that's intelligently reserved and have an inordinate amount of time and patience, to the degree of being odd. You cannot be of the regular type that brags and craves attention, which gravitates to a social person. You must be able to travel and take advantage of as many casinos as you can, and milk them for they are worth in ways which you may think is not necessary. And then, and only then, do probability and statistical numbers on this game bear any significance to you.
I think that consistently generating EV in a casino is only done by a "minority personality" and not an average/typical person. Most people either wouldn't be able to or wouldn't want to do what it takes to consistently win money in a casino.
hasn't been fully addressed, neither the psychological. Most people in these fields are complete morons or just plain ignorant. Everybody just dismisses this area off in a few sentences.
"However, I'm a little uncomfortable with your statement: 'I always thought expecting to lose was only for gamblers?' Advantage players do expect to lose, and lose often. They just expect to win a little MORE, and a little more often."
Gentlemen, I prefer the phrase plainly said "advantage players survive the loss, the others don't". It's all phrases of semantics. Where is the guy "Cyrus" pretending to be a chess player BTW?
If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that one must fit a certain personality profile to be a successful counter. I disagree with that notion. I've met a lot of successful card counters, and their personalities pretty much run the gamut.
I would also disagree to some extent with your statement that one must be able to travel. That is true of a person who wishes to be a professional, but it is not necessarily true of someone who simply wants to be able to beat the casinos when he or she goes to play. This is particularly true in today's environment where there are a lot of casinos spread throughout the U.S.
We are all motivated by different things and our goals can vary when it comes to what we wish to accomplish as card counters. None of those things matter much if we don't know how to play the game and how to count.
He made the statement several months ago that he would be absent, omitting any detail.
If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that one must fit a certain personality profile to be a successful counter. I disagree with that notion. I've met a lot of successful card counters, and their personalities pretty much run the gamut.
I think Dave (welcome back btw) has a point, though I appreciate your view also. I do think certain personality types are more suited to card counting.
That said, the vast majority of personality types can be successful counters if they get good or fair flux early on. The psychological pain is much easier to stomach if you get your bad flux later on. It is much easier for the player who has won $150,000 to accept a 75,000 loss than it is for the new player to lose a mere $5,000.
For the guys who start off unlucky, I do think you need abnormal reserves of courage and mental toughness to continue. One might say you need to be a little weird to persist with counting if the negative flux hits you early on. Many of us only managed to force ourselves onto the baize in the first place because we had a quite irrational belief that negative fluctuation happens to the other guy.
An obsessive personality helps also. Being antisocial helps somewhat-other people will tell you to quit gambling if you lose a lot of cash, and that isn't helpful. You have to ignore them. That said, without a good network amongst the AP community you can miss out on a lot of stuff.
"We are all motivated by different things and our goals can vary when it comes to what we wish to accomplish as card counters. None of those things matter much if we don't know how to play the game and how to count."
May I ask your personal motivating thoughts?
I just wanted to get the money. Beyond that, being able to beat a casino at its own game intrigued me. I had no desire to be a professional gambler. I still don't, even though I'm playing quite a bit since I retired.
Guys,
I think many assumptions are being made. Sarah was asking which system she should pursue, not whether she should become a professional AP. There is also an assumption that she is cognizant of all the terms in Coug�s original post.
She asked whether she should choose Hi-Lo, KO or Golden Touch.
Sun Runner was the only one who answered her question.
I started with Wongs� Profession Blackjack and since I had a background in science and math, I had no problem grasping the concepts. The additional information I obtained from the pages of BJ21 led me to settle on Hi-Lo since a balanced system is better suited to other advantage methods when primarily playing shoes. However, I would seriously recommend Bootlegger�s book and The Big Book of Blackjack by Snyder for a complete noobie.
I would also recommend a subscription to green chip. The archives, which have been the lion share of my education, are well worth the price of the subscription.
I think that after she has the opportunity to the digest all the information in the listed books, including; Risk, Bankroll, Variance, Score CE, N0, she can then decide if she still wants to pursue AP blackjack. At that time I would recommend software such as CVBlack Jack, BJA3, Black Belt in Black Jack.
As to losing an entire bankroll, let�s not forget Kelly. I personally play at � Kelly and I do not expect to come close to losing my entire roll.
Regards,
Chianti
