Anyone tried 'Be the dealer'? (online casino)

"I think I have more of a handle on things than you could imagine. And you are right about 'them' taking all the risk. The people you refer could lose or win money. They take all the risk. You don't care if they get paid or not. You will still split the referral check. After all, in your post further down the page you see nothing wrong with stealing from casinos. Can stealing from your clients be further behind?"

What would you suggest? I give the player $x for a $x depo, they get the bonus, a risk free offer, and I get nothing? When I was talking about risk, I was talking about opening a casino, as you were, licence fees, etc. Nice twist there. People that like to play have the choice: go at it without the referral split or with it. A smart person will take the money. I make winners into bigger winners. I've played and been paid at each casino that I work with, taken the risk, and reaped the rewards.

"There is an incredible difference between avoiding the draft and owning an online casino. If you can't tell the difference between the two, you are truly a morally bankrupt person."

I can tell the diff as you can. Your idealism defeats you. Read this with an open mind:

I also want to thank you once again for making your webpage. If I had
not come across your webpage back in July 2002 I never would have started bonus hunting. I have made more money than I ever thought possible. Without exageration, it has truly changed my life.

I used to be slightly in debt. Now I owe Visa, MC, etc...nothing. I used to generally be a "poor, starving student". Now I can eat steak whenever I want. I used to have to walk or take the bus everywhere. Now I have a decent car. I would have never considered taking a vacation before because I couldn't afford to. Now I am planning a trip in June. And I have enough left over to possibly put a down payment on a house.

That is about the only way I can describe to you how much your webpage
changed my life. Once again, I thank you.

And this:

Hi Rob
Just wanted to say HI and thanks. I am now ahead $830 on line. This is too much fun. I'm beginning to think that you are one of those blessings we have talked about. One day I will find a way to repay you for all this.

That reminds me. If I catch your dog crapping on my lawn again...!

An online casino would be much more vunerable to counters than a land casino.

1. Not nearly as many ploppies (many know at BS at least)
2. Can keep a written record of the count, info etc.
3. Instead of disguises, you have IP addies, which are easy do change (more so than the construction of your face).
4. Spreads can be larger, and can go relatively undetected (casinos could an analyser when auditing cash-ins).

Basically, you can't be a casino and favour the counter (you obviously know that).

I think offering 6:5 SD BJ goes against the principle of opening this casino - fair rules and reliable gaming/banking. Still, it IS giving the people what they want (whether they know it's bad or not ;)

I'd try to emphasis other table play at a casino. Online too many people know BS, and you wouldn't profit nearly as much as a land casino (in proportion to number of patrons).

You'd be better to allow bonus play on game such as craps, roulette, baccarat etc, just not allow arbing style bets (to stop them 'cheating' to get their wagering requirements.

I do see your point though, offer fair games, reliable payouts and a reputable establishment. What would you intend to do with BHers? Acknowledge their skill, how they played by your rules and pay them? Or deny their winnings? Remember casinos can deny winnings by claiming you're a hustler (they normally return you dep).
Your best bet is offering a small bonus, that only has to be wagered say 2 times.

I don't think you'd profit as much as you think. Online patrons aren't (in general) as clueless as their land-based counterparts.

Still, minimum expenses would keep costs down, so you might acutally profit even more (%wise). Who knows. I sure as hell don't. I don't exactly read up on casino profits. Maybe you should.

Wouldn't mind opening a land casino (I'd run it honestly, and deal fairly with the counters, i.e. tolerate them, but restrict them (suspend?) if they get too greedy. After all, you are running a business).

The only risk at online is them not paying you (bet small you'll never bust). However, pick wisely and the chance that they'll rip you off is very small.

I've only been BHing this year. Not wanting to risk anything, I only deposited $100 into a Neteller account. That increased its size by much more than 10000%. Once that gets converted into AU$s its even better.

For the total profit vs size of risk, advantage play DOES NOT get any better.

I have only lost 3 times. All 3 were my fault. One didn't pay BJ. One advised me incorrectly of WR, and I foolishly overbet. The other one I got greedy. Every other win has been at least 100% profit over my deposit.

About owning a casino, it's like being a legal drug dealer. Yes, it takes a 'special' sort of person to do so (I believe I am special enough). HOWEVER, the casinos don't force people to bet or play. It's impossible to profit from a casino without problem gamblers.
Alot like dealing.

In this world it's all about survival. We're animals. That's all. For me, making money at the expense of someone else IS all about survival.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you're some sort of Robin Hood if you're an AP. You are living of the misery of others too.

For me, it's about making money. Nothing else.

BJ is not ideal. Many net patrons know and play decent BS (esp. compared to their land based counterparts).

Best to get a game with a higher house edge, like craps, stud poker, roulette, baccarat etc.

Still, it (sort of) gives players the chance to be the house. Problem is, your 'average' house has a massive BR, and can normally cope with the fluctuations. You're player does not.

I checked up on their website (at least the 'be the casino' one). With their system, you can't just be the dealer, you have to play significantly more. That means giving away a .5% edge playing, getting a worst of a .5% advantage, and giving 1.5% of that to the casino. I guess with careful dealing you could churn out a profit. You would need a large BR, perfect BS (when playing) and preferably silly players.

Easier just being the casino. Maybe a few years down the track I can open one in a joint venture. Basically a license to print money.

I've done some checking around, there are plenty of people who'll supply software, banking, setting up, webpages etc

All ranging from the very cheap, to the reasonably expensive.

Depending what sort of setup you want, it's possible to risk next to nothing.

There are quite a few turn-key packages, some with some real nice software (some allow customization of graphics, rules, etc).

I'd assume most of the casino's on the net are just sub-licensees (use a lisencees software, banking etc, in return the lisencee gets roughly a 20-50% cut in the profits).

The real cheap ones (sub $1000, yes that cheap) are (extemely) likely in my opinion to have awful software, but it shows how cheap they can start at.

Of course apart from software, marketing is the big cost. How much would you be willing to pay for software? Do you really want one of the 'big 6'? For marketing? To build up a solid rep a big software company would be preferable, and that would cost quite a bit (from 25k), but with a group of people, would be cheap.

Hell, 100k would create a very nice site, with reputable software, and buy alot of good marketing. That's only 10k each from 10 people. Be nice if my mates could afford anything like that.

Bonus I'd offer personally would be a $50 or less, twice played through to cash out, and the other, a 50-100 sticky bonus, and you can cash out you dep after wagering twice full. Can remove any winnings, made from the bonus, at anytime. Maybe throw in a $25 twice play through monthly bonus.

Casino style would be tropical, or oriental.

Ah, will I join the dark side?

I know an online player is more likely to know the BS than a land-based player. You also have to consider that online casinos don't employ dealers, pit crew, cocktail waitresses, maintenance, housekeeping, etc. Also, they aren't giving free drinks and there are many other costs associated with having an actual person gambling at your joint. Can you imagine (in Nevada, of all places) the cost of running the air conditioning constantly. Imagine the billions that go into building the resort in the first place? These are all costs that land-based casinos have to deal with. So, I am certain the cost of operation of an internet casino is much lower.

I mentioned in my previous posts ways to handle counters. Preferential shuffling and having the software shuffle if the RC gets too high ought to do it.

Bonuses are used frequently by many online casinos to attract new players. I see pros and cons for it. You are promising a pay-out that may very well have been hustled. I have an alternative suggestion.

Let people play their BR a certain number of times and if after that time the player is showing a loss, you can credit back their money to their original BR. I think this would entice more people to play in the aspect of trying to get ahead with no risk. You would have to of course have limits such as BR size ($200), length of play ($600 in action I think), and a stipulation that the risk-free session will end if the player gets a 20% gain in BR. Even a bonus may not be enough for some individuals cause a risk is still involved when they play, but take away the risk, and who wouldn't play?

Also, as far as finding BJ players who don't know BS and have a tremendous self-inflicted house edge on them, here's an idea:

Advertise heavily on www.johnpatrick.com

Ha nice website. I'm actually setting up a net casino now. Just an affiliate one (I only get half profits). Still, have to start somewhere. Also gives me something constructive to do.

I realised after putting it up, the cash back bonus has a major disadvantage as stated. It seems if the requirement was say $200 and a $600 play action requirement, other measures would be needed as well. I think that offer could be hustled in a devastating way: Bet the entire $200 deposit. If you lose, no biggie, because you would get it back. If you win, then wager the entire $400 BR on the next bet. This would equal out to $600 wagered and give the player a chance to turn $200 into $800 on an even money wager. I think a bet-size limit would be necessary too, such as 5% of bankroll. Any other thoughts out there?

Tend to lose about as much as they would by taking their wife and kids out for a Saturday shopping trip, topped off with diner and a movie. Multiply that by about 3000 a day and you're making money. There will be about 1% of the crowd being skilled AP's, set off by around 3-6% compulsive losers. I'm sure you have heard from AP's that once you win the money it is your money, not house money. You will often hear people saying "I'm betting with their money." I feel it is the same thing when a person loses their money. It's not theirs anymore, it's the casinos. Poker is a little different, but once again, we are dealing with adults that decide to take a seat and play for money. What about the stock market? Sportsbetting? Making a deal to buy a house that could be a great buy but a distress sale. Who are you looking out for? Your interests or everyone elses? If you think too deeply about this stuff you will paralize your effectiveness.

Isaiah 54

2 "Enlarge the place of your tent,
stretch your tent curtains wide,
do not hold back;
lengthen your cords,
strengthen your stakes.

3 For you will spread out to the right and to the left;
your descendants will dispossess nations
and settle in their desolate cities.

That just about spells it out for me. Where did this desolation come from?? From NOT being an advantage player.

Give them a % for what they wager.

If they wager 2 times through they get 10% back, 4 times through, 20%, 8 through 40%,

so they get all the way to 20X thought to get the full 100%

its a bad bonus for hustlers, but decent for an average gambler.

Means they can get as large as they like too (bust easily).

I also think a small bonus with a low play through limit is good (eg $20 and 2X). The problem is that it might not look attractive even though it is. Setup a higher minimum bet (say $5). Stops people betting $1-2 to stay alive. Will bust more people.

Offer a good bonus on a non BJ game. Any other game would give you a decent % return (you're not meant to win off a sign up, you're meant to gain customer loyalty)

is advertising for them. You might ask these questions over there when the board comes back up again.

Problem is, your 'average' house has a massive BR, and can normally cope with the fluctuations. You're player does not.

Your individual player does not. But you are playing against not an individual but the public, who have an effectively infinite amount of money. You will likely bankrupt individuals who overbet their bankroll, but one or two of that pool will get extremely unlikely and win back the losses of all the others, which is how the house edge manifests itself.
Please don't actually try and do this. You will go broke.

With winning, I never say it is the casino's money. If you can walk away with it, then it's yours. Since you did win it, it might not hurt to lose it, but it is still your money. It's not won until it's out the door though.

How many times have we heard 'I won 5k, but then lost it all'? If people could simply pocket their winnings and not get so greedy (or at least pocket half of the winnings), casinos wouldn't be in business. I doubt they operate just off an edge (I'm sure they expect most people to lose their 'BR').

I saw a post somewhere recently, and it basically mentioned how people are happy to shop around to get those few extra .1%s in interest rates, but get so greedy in the casino, and feel they must double, triple or jilliontiple their money.

It's yours if you can walk away with it. At the same time, it's not really yours until you HAVE walked with it.

I wouldn't. You'd need a larger BR than I'm wiling to put up online. As far as the big winners, I wouldn't think they'd win all of it back, after all there is a house edge. You also underestimate the stupidity of many winners. They might win, but then they'll throw it all away.

There might be many on their side, but if each person overbets, they'll most likely face ruin. Most people DO overbet, and do go bust. Few actually cut their losses and quit. When people walk into a casino, they normally walk in expecting to lose the money they're prepared to risk, but hope that they could win. Most will put up their BR, and go for broke. Lose small or win big.

If you recorded all the people walking out, most would say they lost a little, some would say they won a little, a few would say they lost alot, and even fewer would say they won alot.

The only way a ploppy can win (as in leave with money), is to quit on a positive fluctuation. They will normally get greedy, keep playing, and catch the negative swing.

People who lose, don't have a chance to catch a positive swing, because they've busted. Most of those that do catch one (before they bust), keep playing until they can't cope with the fluctuations (overbet).

I'd say the casino earns more than what they could obtain simply operating with the edge they have.

You might argue it's mathematics that the winners basically cancel out the losers. However you are missing the fact that most people overbet.