An article I found on the web...

According to the article, he is suing for

1) invasion of privacy, :this must be the photographing and distributing of photographs without permission.

2) defamation :this must be the alert to the other casinos that he
is undesirable.

3) and allegedly violating California's unfair business practices laws
:this is the one directly about counting

It would seem 1 and 2 should be a slam dunk for Franceschi. I suppose
if he was engaging in criminal or disruptive behavior the casino could
get off on 1 and 2 but even that is not so clear, and he can probably
easily prove it was not criminal or disruptive.

The result of this case may be the Casinos get a little tighter
on their Griffin and SIN postings, but continue their internal
barrings as usual?

Also, suppose the MGM is required to post that warning. That would
be quite humorous but would it really hurt their business? I imagine
the ordinary gambler might be thrilled to think he might win so much
they'll throw him out. I could see the casino using it in their
advertising: "You might win so much here, we'll have to throw you
out!"

> I think S.R. expects us to continue to bend over forever for these people. Maybe he is one them.
(OK, my earlier guess of you being in High School might have been wrong. I'm willing to guess now less than 25. How 'bout it?)

> Do you think the big casinos would quit if they had to give a little more back to their patrons?

When did you become one of their patrons? I'm not one of their patrons. I prefer they don't know I even exist. I spend as little money in their place as possible, when I'm there to play cards. You and I are basically parasites that sneak in and, on balance, take their money. And they know it. They know you and I are better (generally) than they are and they are under no obligation (I'm no lawyer) to gamble with us.

I have rights while on their premisis. A right not to get cheated if they choose to gamble with me. A right not to get beat up if they chose to ask me to quit gambling with them. A right that their dealers not use outside computing devices if I can't. A right not to have my financial information ponied about all over town. A right (expectation) that the NGC would be fair and even handed.

I expect from them the very same treatment I would give others if I owned and managed a casino myself. And if I did, and you came in and asked to gamble with me, I would politely decline, because you are better at it than me; and I know it.

Therefore, I don't ask. I come in, and play as well as I can, and try not to get caught. Therein is your "right."

Is it getting harder -you bet it is. Does that confer upon you any more rights just because they are getting better at spotting your game than you are at hiding it? Not in my opinion.

> It is apparent to me that they make way more $ than they need to be content with their operations.

How generous of you. Now you want to legislate their internal rate of return? Let me guess, I knew it, your voting for Kerry.

What do you want? To personally determine the rules of the game? To spread your bets at will? To sit and play till you own the joint?

What if one day they just decided, screw it, we're tired of jacking with Stealth Bomber's (what was it, oh yea) "Elite Revolution Squad." We are just going to quit offering BJ all together.

Can they do that? What about my rights?

Its not internal rate of return, which is a method imposed to evaluate capital projects, but rather the growth rate of what the industry calls "OI" or operating income. This is their bottom line growth rate, and it would be their arguement that they have to continue growing at that rate in order to satisfy their investors. The minute the industry became corporatized and even worse, companies started to go public, is when we advantage players began to get screwed. Its all about that bottom line to the industry, and in order to get them to reverse their trend of screwing people out of their money, they would have to feel that they have a greater risk of declining OI by not fixing the situation. hmm...

they throw us oiut (each time). That being the case we also have the weapon of informing the public as a response, which is also our right.

S.R. your so dramatic. I think you need to pipe-down before you have a heart attack. Nobody's doing anything yet! We are considering some possibilities. That's why we talk about it here. You bring up points that are certainly valid. But your not teaching me anything I don't already know. I want solutions to the problems we face.

Ah... ah... so I guess your solution to the pollution is dilution???? ...... I'm still not sure what to do or not to do. You don't offer up anything for us to consider. Is this everything you have to bring to the table? I hear your whining about us possibly ruining the world of gaming. I guess you think we should not chance upsetting the apple cart. Let's just accept the little dry bone they throw us. Meanwhile, let's let them screw over and take advantage of the typical uninformed ploppy so they can build their empires with the money they take rather than earn. Hey, at least this is one of our choices. At least we have 1 CHOICE. Are you saying that we DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER CARDS TO PLAY?

p.s. I'd have to kill myself before I voted for Kerry. But that has nothing to do with any of this.

If you did you wouldn't ask the question about longevity. He has been playing probably since before you were born.

You don't have any rights when it comes to them asking you to leave. Hell if they spot you come in they can tell you any game but BJ, your free to eat at any restaurant or they can say hit the road. Now if they give you an opportunity to leave and you don't... If you sit there and attempt to disuss the finer points of the law with someone who is a making $12.50 an hour and they hook you up that is their right in the State of Nevada because you refused to leave. Who is smarter in this case?
The case is in CA and involves advertising only in CA.
As far has pictures goes, say I'm at the zoo. I take a picture. I go home have it developed. My wife is showing them to her friend. In the background is this friends husband kissing another women. Can the friend sue the friend? Can the husband of the friend sue the friend/wife? Can the woman who was kissing the husband sue the friend, the friend of a friend, the husband? Now you say but the casinos specifically took this guys picture because he is winning. A casino is a public place surveillance it is not clandestine everyone knows its there. They can and will take your picture anytime they want. What they do with the picture is up for debate.
Yes it is you right inform the public. They could give a crap about you and your campaign. Try sending more spam, spin and handing out pamphlets it won't matter. They will come, they will play, they will lose. They don't care. Try talking to a guy/gal who is sitting at or just left the table after losing and see what they say. Especially if their drunk. Good luck keeping dry or keeping your teeth.
Spend the time improving your game and act. Build your bankroll. Then try to take some of the 14 Billion that is wagered each year in the state of Nevada.
Spend less time chasing windmills.
This may not be you want to hear but it is the truth.

To the dealer - "Dummy up and deal"
To the advantage player - "shut up and count"

I speak after 30 years play in LV at the highest levels. Your advice to:

"Spend the time improving your game and act. Build your bankroll. Then try to take some of the 14 Billion that is wagered each year in the state of Nevada. Spend less time chasing windmills.
This may not be you want to hear but it is the truth. "

is meaningles to me as I've done far beyond what you refer to. Your advise is quite a joke.

What I speak of is important regarding informing the public. whether or not they give a damn now or not is unimportant as the opinion they will have when a collective campaign of all of us becomes the major public opinion. They are extermely sensitive to public opi nion. Only through that will the game become worth anything again. I speak not about the red chippers who gather here. They have not a clue of what is going. The attitude of doing nothing as the game withers away is also a waste of time.

I once called up on a local radio talk show when the guest was inviting everyone to their newly opened casino (a Station casino) and offered to play for any amount of money, would I be allowed to play and would the listeners be allowed to come down and watch, or is that only allowed for certain deignated losers? Here they were on the air and this casino scumbag huckster was twisting in the wind on live radio in front of thousands of listeners. Would I or would I not be allowed to play? and why not? Public information like this is what they want to avoid at all costs. And YOU and your loser attitude is exactly what they hope for. Keep it up and you too will get a $1.99 breakfast!

As for them asking you to leave you do have the rigbht to go back in just refer the Wilkinson case. But spare me the nonsense about trying to play better and "improving" my game as your not qualified to carry my jockstrap. Compared to my background in this game your and your opinion are quite comical.

The "improvement" I seek is for all of us to be able to play the game long ago playable. Only through informing the public by internet, billboards and otherwise can we force the pressure to make this happen. If we listen to the red chippers and 3 for 2 coupon players and their attitude we will never get anywhere--just as they never get anywhere.

1. 30 tyears of play at the highest levels, debatable I'm sure, but we'll never know the truth. We'll just have to take your word for it.
2....Done far beyond what you refer to...advice...joke. The truth hurts.
3.Informing the public. The public just wants to have fun. Otherwise every BJ book would be on the NY Times bestseller list.
4. ...red chippers who gather here...not a clue...what is going (on). Way to go insult the very constituency (sic) you need to convince in order for your campaign to be successful. Bright very Bright.
5....attitude of doing nothing as the game withers away is also a waste of time. Huh? Don't type or think when angry, makes ya look...well dumb.
6. The whole local radio talk show thing. Your making that up. "Twisting in the wind" thats funny. You never did say what his answer was. You ain't from around here is ya?
7. Wilkinson case, don't miss use what I stated. If you refuse to leave they can and will arrest you. It's called criminal trespass a misdemeanor (sic). What Wilkinson did was make it so each time you came back that they had to give you a chance to leave before arresting you. Re-read the case again.
8. Is it nonsense to improve your game? Gimme an address I'll mail you those $1.99 breakfast coupons, your gonna need'em.
9....Carry your jockstrap. I'll just that one hang out there, are you laughing everyone else is. When intelligent arguement fails resort to name calling. Bright very bright.
10. Opinion quite comical... It's just my opinion glad it made you laugh.
11. Hey genuis you need red chippers, coupon players, silver players, green chippers, black chippers, white chippers, you need all the chippers in all the world for you to be successful.
12. ...play the game long ago playable. Sherman set the wayback machine for 1960. When winners weren't asked to leave (no they had the *hit kicked out of them) and the public was oh so smarter.
13. Your are not Ghandi, the casinos are not the British. But you could march to the sea and pound salt.
Love ya, gotta go, enjoy the girls, I'm dark on Mondays.

> Its not internal rate of return.

Yes, it is.

IRR is the rate at which the present value of a series of investments (the operating income, as you call it) is equal to the present value of the returns on those investments (the casino's invested capital.)

"Operating income" is a meaningless number until compared to the capital investment it took to earn it.

You might feel that an annual operating income of $1MM would be a huge success. If it took a $100MM investment to earn it, people would be getting fired.

Get the picture?

"What Wilkinson did was make it so each time you came back that they had to give you a chance to leave before arresting you."

John, where can I get my hand on the Wilkinson case? I like to read it & learn from it.

If Knowledge is Power......then knowledge from the case will come in handy, especially just before getting arrested by the overzealous shift manager & guards. I look forward to your reply.

> S.R., I think you need to pipe-down before you have a heart attack.

Thanks, I'm in great shape.

> You bring up points that are certainly valid.

Thanks again.

> But your not teaching me anything I don't already know.

It's not for lack of trying on my part. :)

> I want solutions to the problems we face.

What problems? Not being allowed to play in the manner and style you choose?

> Ah .. ah .. so I guess your solution to the pollution is dilution????

If I knew what that meant, I'd try and respond.

> Let's just accept the little dry bone they throw us.

Some people, OK, one person I know persoanlly, is doing quite well on the dry bones. I suspect many others are as well.

> Meanwhile, let's let them screw over and take advantage of the typical uninformed ploppy

Oh, now we are becoming our brothers keeper. It's gambling for crying out loud! If you don't know what's going on you had better keep your money in your pocket.

> so they can build their empires with the money they take rather than earn.

I'm dramatic!?

> p.s. I'd have to kill myself before I voted for Kerry ..

OK, there is hope for you yet. :)

Here is the deal, for me. If your next post does not contain 5 (five) specific propblems that you feel need rectifying, then this will be my last post on this subject. Maybe I haven't been listening, for that I'll apologize. But it's time to see the manifesto.

Either way, good luck to you.

I'll have to look it up. You may be able to to find it in past decisions of the NV Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court decisions. Anyone else, LVBear?
A piece of paper isn't going to protect you from morons and uninformed over paid stuffed suits. And no I'm not bitter, rotflmao!

standpoint its EBITDA, from an operations/gaming director standpoint its OI. EBITDA takes care of itself after OI, since operators on the property level generally have no control over items after OI. Hence the term OPERATING income....the point being...if they can make more money after operating expenses by say, cutting blackjack tables in half and putting slot machines in, they will...in fact...thats been the trend as you all know. In other words, if we make it too much of a pain in the ass, or too costly for them to offer the bad games, they are going to cut the number of tables in half, put in slot machines which have a much better effect to OI (and EBITDA for that matter) and leave the bad blackjack games to give the "ploppie" husband of the slot player something to do while waiting for his wife to pound money into the machines.

The initial investment in the property itself is not taken into consideration. From an investor standpoint, IRR would be taken into account. From an operating standpoint, the investment in capital projects are analyzed seperately from the P&L. Hence the decision to "Capitalize" a project vs expense it. When casino operators are considering an investment, IRR (or actually, NPV and payback are used more frequently then IRR) may be taken into account. But when creating the operating plan for the next year, IRR never enters the picture. Its all growth rate in OI. Please see above comment for further explanation on OI.

I worked as a Financial analyst for one of the most analytical, numbers generated gaming companies. Thats how they did it there, if you have other experiences, I would like to hear how it is done...

The point pf all this is that if we do nothing it only gets worse. This apparently goes over your head. My references to high stakes play is due to that is where the action and money us. If you want to play 6:5 red chip you will not be bothered. You won't live in a palace either. You offer nothing of substance to resolve the problem. A few responses to your meandering thoughts:

1. Who cares?
2..Ditto
3 .Back in the 1960s when the casinos got paranoid and went to double deck the busines was cut in half and they soon adjusted back. Only afterwards when they re introduced double deck (for awhile with a joker!) was it with rule variaitons favorable to the player. Tell the people the truth and they would be outraged. People are sold on 21 as the casinos continally tell them it is the only game that is beatable.
4. I refer to your obvious lack of experience. Bright? thank you.
5..See #4
6. Wrong again. The casino rep gave several conflicitng answers and asked me to contact him later. When I did he was not interested.
7. You need to reread the case.
8. See #4.
9..You are the one lecturing to concertarte on improving the game. Response was about appropriate.
10. Opinion quite comical... More comical than worthy of any benefit. Nobody benefits following your advise to do nothing.
11. See #4
12. See #3
13. Your grab the ankles approach accomplishes nothing.
Next time I'm in McDonald's I'll say hello.

Let me guess, you support Golden Craps too? The mythical Speed count? Who is a worse criminal; the devil you know or the devil you don't know? Experience? If what you've learned from your experience is what your posting here, then what have you learned really. Here is a thimble fill it up. ROTFLMAO