Ace-Five count question

I'm a basis strategy player who'd like to eliminate the .036% house edge from the shoe games I play. I'd like to start implementing the Ace-Five count and wanted to make sure Iam clear on it.

Fives (+1)
Aces (-1)

At a zero count bet 2X the table minimum
At a negative count bet table min.
At +1, +2 and so on bet the count plus two for the beginning zero count. For instance a 10 dollar table a +2 count would be 40.00

Does this create a neutral game?

What are the rules of the .036% shoe game you are playing? I personally don't believe you have the house edge correct. A typical house edge for a shoe game is .5%.

Now concerning the A-5 count. That is a count that was created in teh 60's. Back when there were only single deck games, dealt to the bottom. The A-5 count could give the player a slight edge under those conditions, but hardly under the conditions of a typical shoe.

Look into the Hi-low or KO. Both are modern counts that really aren't as difficult to learn as you might think.

6 Deck
DOA, DAS, RSA, LS, S17, Re-split 3 times to 4 hands. I thought the house edge on these rules was .36%

Found these rules at several strip casinos on my last Vegas trip in March. MGM, Mandalay Bay to name a couple.

I knew the Ace-Five count wouldn't give me a edge. I hoped it would lower the house edge or make it an even game on shoes. Hope that's not correct about only being able to be used on single deck dealt to the bottom.

ccwannabe,
.36% sounds much more realistic than .036%.

Now as far as A-5. I don't really know how much of this house edge the A-5 can get back. I don't think it will do very much. I have never run a sim on A-5.

The other issue when playing multiple decks is the true count. The true count (count per deck) is the running count divided by the number of decks remaining. The number that you have from your +1's and -1's is the running count. What it boils down to is a +3 near the beginning of the shoe is very different than a +3 near the end of the shoe.

But I state again, you really should look into KO or Hi-Low.

There are some A-5 sims in the site in the link below. A-5 should be able to wipe out most of the house edge under most conditions. Under good conditions, or with some wonging, it should give you a tiny edge.

I've been looking for something easy to add to my BS play that would just get me even with the casino. Just so I have it right, the below spread is based on running count not true count?

RC UNITS
<+3 1
+3 2
+4 3
+5 4
+6 5
+7 6
+8 8

after 1 deck of a 6 deck shoe, your RC is +4, your TC is zero. Betting 4 units with no advantage over the house would seem to be a bankroll drainer.

with a RC of +8, the TC is +1, you are max betting in a negative EV situation still, as this count doesn't get +.5 for each TC increment...

Maybe I misunderstood something...

that for the original SD/DD idea, this makes a bit more sense...

1) A-5 is emphatically not a winning system. Used right under reasonable conditions it is a break-even system. Whether a bet is fractionally to the right or left of break-even in EV terms is relatively unimportant. In either case you aren't going to win any money as a practical matter.

2) Count systems occassionally get things wrong. Rather than try and devise situations where the perform poorly, it is better to get a feel of how they perform on average.

I had read the original post as saying to bet big on + running counts, not true counts, which is what raised my antenna. With a + RC, the TC could still be zero, and a big bet would seem (as I said) to play into the casino's advantage...

Again, maybe I misunderstood.

Also, the "advantage" seems remarkably close. Even though A-5 is ignoring all the big cards except for A. Any idea on the BC? Also it would seem that PE is pretty well nil. It's certainly interesting data, to say the least...

cleared up the detail I was not considering, namely that even though A5 has a similar advantage to hilo at a similar count, that count will happen far less frequently since so few cards are being counted (A-5 only).

For fun, I set this up on CVBJ and played for about 15 minutes using this count. It was pretty interesting in that there was one stretch of 8+ hands (heads up play) where the count never changed as no ace or 5 showed up.

Going the other way, I had thought about changing from Hi-Lo a couple of years back as I discovered systems with better PE, but some simulations I ran (custom software) convinced me that the advantage for changing would be minimal, particularly as at the time I was mainly playing shoes. Probably if I were traveling the world playing blackjack, I'd give this serious thought. But playing mainly in the SE with a trip to Vegas here and there, hi-lo seems to be serving me well.

I'm heading to Vegas early in July, and am going to pay more attention to downtown this time even though we are staying on the strip. Planning on seeing what kind of SD/DD games I can find downtown (if any) with decent penetration.

Thanks for the non-argumentative discussion, that is becoming a rare thing to find. :)

Thanks for the RC sim and it almost answers the question below but I need a little help.

I'm an ex HiLo guy but been out of the game for over 6 years. Going to Vegas next month and wanted to use the Ace/Five since I'm so out of practice.

Question is: If I can afford to go to a table and start at 0 Ace/Five Count with 4 units and use the + deviation listed but also subtract a unit per when negative grows before "Wonging Out" after -3 and a single unit, would it be more benificial?

Basically this:

Off the Table
-3 : 1 Units
-2 : 2 Units
-1 : 3 Units
New Shoe 0 : 4 Units
+1 : 5 Units
+2 : 6 Units
+3 : 7 Units

And So On...

There are actually two games but lets go with the tougher one... 6 Deck, H17, DS, LS, RSA... I think .45 but not sure. The other game is S17 but probably wont touch it unless my HiLo does come back. I just dont trust that it will. To me HiLo was a rythem count and really easy to loose it unless your on your game. Unlike Basic Strategy, counting is not like riding a bike. It took me a while to learn in under casino conditions, while very simple at home.
-4 : Bang My Wife or something :D
-3 : 1 Units
-2 : 2 Units
-1 : 3 Units
0 : 4 Units
+1 : 5 Units
+2 : 6 Units
and so on is because I use to have a theory of hedging your negative counts rather than waiting til break even and jumping into 2x style. Never used it but I thought it would suite Ace/Five pretty well since I fear Ace/Five Swings can be ridiculous. I'll be entering $10 tables with 1green/3red. Bankroll is about 2k but stop loss is 500 per hour session.

If HiLo does come back easily I'll hit the .25 tables and try to do my normal damage ;). Thanks again Alienated

P.S. If any of this sounds ridiculous, lemme know... My AP days were way before the internet Generation so I dont really know how much things have changed. Have to admit though.... It's nice to be able to actually research all the theory finally.

Saw the error of my ways.... Told you I was rusty ;). Using your chart, there is no way a regression would work with Ace/Five. Your right. I should stick with increasing at +3 and scaling it to a 1-18 spread: