Would you consider a team playing at an online poker table (collusion team) to be "cheating" or "advantage play"? And why? It's technically against the rules of the poker sites but hey, the rules of the game don't matter, right?
Would you consider a team playing at an online poker table (collusion team) to be "cheating" or "advantage play"? And why? It's technically against the rules of the poker sites but hey, the rules of the game don't matter, right?
In the 'Hot Shoe' documentary he considers that card counters ruin the game because they do not dumb down to an even playing field with the ploppies. He says they should all be banned since they have an unfair advantage over the civilians and are taking their money.
I consider your position on hole-carding indefensible considering you find pre-meditated study for advantage play and special information on deck composition to be 'ethical.'
Hole card specialists are playing by the rules. You have become a troll with your moral crusade and more importantly you are denigrating the whole community of honest advantage players by calling them 'cheaters' and unethical. In all, it is an offensive tirade made more despicable by your mocking tone.
If you want to ignore opportunities, that is your business. But don't expect to find a reasonable discussion forthcoming when you insist on such an insulting tenor to your comments.
>In the 'Hot Shoe' documentary he considers that card counters ruin the game because they do not dumb down to an even playing field with the ploppies. He says they should all be banned since they have an unfair advantage over the civilians and are taking their money.
>I consider your position on hole-carding indefensible considering you find pre-meditated study for advantage play and special information on deck composition to be 'ethical.'
I don't particularly care what Andy Anderson or anyone else says about card counting being cheating or unethical. Memorizing the cards that have been dealt is NOT against the rules of the game. Peeking at hole cards is. Case closed.
And if a casino wants to bar someone because they card count, or they smell bad, or any other reason (with the exception of those groups protected by anti-discrimination laws), then they have every right to do so. Casinos are private property and should not be forced to cater to those customers they don't want. Any other business has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.
>Hole card specialists are playing by the rules.
WRONG!!! It is AGAINST THE RULES TO PEEK AT THE DEALER'S HOLE CARD.
>You have become a troll with your moral crusade and more importantly you are denigrating the whole community of honest advantage players by calling them 'cheaters' and unethical. In all, it is an offensive tirade made more despicable by your mocking tone.
Boo hoo. Where was your phony indignation when I was posting here a few years ago that I prefer to count cards (using what we believe to be the best index number tables) and I got called a moron and worse for choosing not to use exotic methods which could draw attention and heat to us? I don't denigrate "the whole community" of honest advantage players, because straight counting is not against the rules. Maybe if I was shown some more respect in the past then I would show more respect for those people. But instead, you people resorted to the same tactics that you are using in this very post that I'm responding to... name calling, flames, and calling people "troll" merely for expressing their opinions. I've had to deal with an organized gang of what you call "trolls" merely for stating my preference to not hole card or use other "exotic" methods. (namely Las Vegas Blackjack Mafia Scum and his band of cheat-defending trolls)
>But don't expect to find a reasonable discussion forthcoming when you insist on such an insulting tenor to your comments.
Waaahhh boo hoo. Big fat baby doesn't like his own behavior thrown back in his own face. Too bad... it's too late now for a "reasonable" discussion. You people started this war and I am not the type of person who surrenders to terrorism.
And most significantly, YOU DID NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION. Do you believe that playing in an online poker room as a colluding team to be "cheating" or "advantage play"??? Your NON answer speaks volumes.
I don't know THAT much about Poker, but isn't it against the rules to show another player your cards? In live games the hand can be declared dead by the dealer if a player shares what he/she has right?
So i guess it could be considered cheating.
It is AGAINST THE RULES TO PEEK AT THE DEALER'S HOLE CARD
Where is this rule printed about ANY game? You know you are making things up. Please go away.
Casinos are private property and should not be forced to cater to those customers they don't want. Any other business has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.
Yes, private business does have that right. Although, taking a patron's picture w/o their permission and publishing it across public networks and to outside agencies w/o permission of the patron is not legal, yet you fail to address that issue. In a public venue, yes, it would be legal. But you just stated that casinos are "private" property. Correct?
>Although, taking a patron's picture w/o their permission and publishing it across public networks and to outside agencies w/o permission of the patron is not legal, yet you fail to address that issue.
Because the issue was not brought up and is irrelevant to what is being discussed. I didn't express my views on the Iraq War in this thread for the same reason.
Are you saying that a person or corporation does not have the right to take a picture of someone who is on their property???
>Where is this rule printed about ANY game?
Yeah that's why they always show you their hole card when you're playing. Because it's information you are supposed to have.
You cheaters keep digging that hole deeper and deeper, when you're not using personal insults and threats to intimidate anyone who disagrees with you.
>I don't know THAT much about Poker, but isn't it against the rules to show another player your cards?
As much against the rules as peeking at the dealer's hole card is.
But hey... cheating is now being called "advantage play". Orwell would be proud.
All I got were flames, insults, lies, and changing the subject. ANSWER THE QUESTION:
Is team play/collusion in an online poker room "cheating" or "advantage play", and what is the difference between team play at poker and hole carding at blackjack? A very simple question. The fact that no one can answer the actual question, and instead resorts to flaming tactics, is very telling.
Poker & Blackjack, apples and oranges. Hole carding in BJ is information that is readily available to the whole table if they recognize it, you play against the house. Poker you play against your fellow gamblers at the table. So working in collusion with other players to take down a score is unethical and could be considered cheating. Does this happen in poker online or in a casino? Yes because experienced poker players love to take off players who are amatuers. Poker players eventually get wise with experience and then themselves become the fleecer and not the fleecee. With that said you should be able to see the difference.
You sound very intelligent and wise to the ways of the world. Therefore I can and will cut you some slack on this issue. While it may be your opinion that hole carding is illegal, cheating, unethical, etc. According to Nevada State Law, see Einbinder/Dahlberg vs State of Nevada, hole carding is not illegal nor is it a prosecutable offense. I think people misconstrue your opinion with fact. Everyone has a right to express their view point. With that I will not argue. But you should reconsider name calling, i.e. cheaters, that is a very serious allegation and could be considered slanderous. Now if you are really, Gordon, Kenny or the part of the crew from who know who then you have succeeded in stirring up a hornets nest of caca. As far as LVHCM goes they toy with people like you for entertainment purposes. This is not meant as an insult to you, thats just how they do it. It is purely entertainment for them, trust me, because if they wanted to really flame you they wouldn't be doing it online. Again this is not a threat it is just the way it is, that's how they operate. If they are your friend, great, if your a perceived threat they will definitely let you know. One final note, they do not suffer fools gladly, and it is within their rights to express their opinion about that. So go on talk all you want, express your views. But and I mean but, if you are in a casino and you are at table where hole carding is taking place and you stand up and yell cheater or snitch out this play to the shift boss then you my friend have crossed a very real line. At this point it would behoove you to leave the casino immediately. Yes that would be very bad karma indeed.
So good luck getting down and good cards to you. Gordon and the gang if this is you, you damn well know that none of you can evaluate play. It is not within the scope of your expertise.
they can take one, its the unauthorized distribution of the picture to other agencies/casinos that is the issue. i.e...I can take a picture of a naked woman and keep it in my bathroom for my viewing pleasure. If I then post that picture on the internet without her consent, ooops...thats illegal...
at least thats how I read the law
anybody else more familiar with it?
Revealing hole card in poker = cheating (rules say you can't)
Peeking the hole card in blackjack = NOT cheating
There are many game authorities who have published rules. Here is just one example. If you want more, I can supply them.
"Is team play/collusion in an online poker room "cheating" or "advantage play","
Collusion in any type of poker is expressly prohibited in the written and publicly available rules of the game. It is clearly cheating IMHO.
"and what is the difference between team play at poker and hole carding at blackjack?"
I have NEVER seen any written or unwritten rules that say anything like the following:
Rule #1 - If you happen to see the dealers hole card, without using any type of device, then you are prohibited from using this information to your advantage and must play in the same manner as if you had not seen the dealers hole card.
Not only would this type of rule be ridiculous and completely unenforcable, but it is NOT how the casinos operate in these situations. In every case I have seen where the floor is aware that the dealers hole card has been exposed to one or more players, the floor always allows players to proceed with any strategy they choose. This sometimes occurs when the dealer blows past third base and flips their hole card even though 3rd base signalled for a hit. The floor has always asked 3rd base whether they still want a hit (now that they have the hole card info). This behavior by the floor seems to be in direct conflict with the "rule" above.
My question for you is what exactly is the rule that prohibits the use of hole card info. Does this rule also require me to close my eyes so that I don't accidentally see the hole card with a sloppy dealer? How, exactly would such a rule be worded?
Hole card players do not "peak" at the dealers's hole card. They do not reach across the table and lift up the cards to "peak" at them. That would be cheating. They may see an occasional card by merely observing closely in the normal course of play. They take no affirmative action to see the cards - other than positioning themselves to take advantage of a dealer that doesn't protect the cards correctly. I've observed horses at the track that indicated to me by their behavior that they wouldn't run up to par that day and took that into my calculation when placing a bet. I didn't take any affirmative action - like cracking the horse in the knee like Tonya Harding - but merely observed information that was available to anyone who bothered to walk to the paddock. In your question regarding online poker, two or more players took affirmative action - collusion -to defraud other players. They were not merely observing the game. A more accurate comparison would be to a live poker game, where it's a player's responsibility to protect their hand. If a player holds their cards in a manner that other players may see them, the other players may use that information. No affimative action was taken - merely passive observation. Certainly not cheating.
I read your provocative posts about the nature of hole-carding in a previous thread. At the time I thought you brought a lot of extraneous anger to the discussion that was unjustified by the comments I was reading. Just the kind of flame-war I avoid as a matter of policy. Your inductive reasoning is filled with holes.
Now you bring up the same topic again with a comparison to obvious cheating techniques designed to unfairly take money from other players in a completely different environment. To continue to resurrect a topic and make repetitive statements is the hallmark of 'Troll-ism.'
The fact that there is a distinction between hole carding and poker collusion is apparent to everyone but you. I was not there years ago when you started your crusade but I can imagine you got a similar response at that time as you are now receiving.
I have no interest in feeding your desire for attention. This will be my last post on the topic.
"Would you consider a team playing at an online poker table (collusion team) to be "cheating" or "advantage play"?"
Cheating.
"And why?"
Because it is against the rules of every site I have seen. I might not consider it cheating at some site if they didn't have rules against it, but I don't think I will ever see a site like that so it is moot.
"It's technically against the rules of the poker sites but hey, the rules of the game don't matter, right?"
No. If it is against the rules, it is wrong and it is cheating.
Going by your thread title I think you are trying to connect this to hole carding, but it is not a valid comparison. Hole carding is legal and not against the rules.
A more valid comparison to poker collusion would be marking the cards or removing some cards from the game. This is against the rules and is clearly spelled out in the rules. Just like collusion.
"I don't know THAT much about Poker, but isn't it against the rules to show another player your cards?"
"As much against the rules as peeking at the dealer's hole card is."
Wrong.
It isn't against the rules to peek at the dealers hole card. There have been a couple of court cases that have said as much. It is against the rules to collude in poker. Most casino have rules stating as much.
If you can show me any legitimate source that says using information about the hole card that the dealer reveals is illegal or against the rules you will have a point but you seem unable to do this.
"But hey... cheating is now being called "advantage play"."
There you go with the insults, calling people playing perfectly legal blackjack cheaters. You don't deserve any respect if all you are going to do is post your opinion and then insult those who disagree with it (especially when they have proof to back up their claims and you have none).
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