6:5 help please?

i know this is gettng very old.can anyone tell my why the 6.5 game isnt good for the player?,other than the payoffs arent as much as they are on 2.5 r whatever.
i know i sound igonorant,{thats why im asking},but,,if ya got only 52 cards,,arent they a bit easier to count and be accurate on?,providing we get dealt proper rounds ect.
It cant be all about the bj payoff being lower,,how many bjs per hour ect,,
what about the counter using and keeping the edge when it come to double down hands,,ddown after splits,ect?there are many more counting oppetunties than just knowing when to up your bet for blackjacks,right?,,,
should our counting edges keep the money comming in from these hands throughout the game,enough to compensate for the low bj payoffs?
i hear just lowering the payoffs "gives the house an additional edge" ect,,,
i havent played the game and responses say not too.
if anyone doesnt mind,how bout some solid feedback,so`s i mays larn me bit?,,lol,,thanks,,k

...the theory goes like this:

As a counter (and a good one), we can only gain between 1-1.5% advantage assuming a play all. The disadvantage off the top is somewhere around 1.5-1.75% for a 6:5 single deck. So going strictly by the numbers, even if we were to apply a good strategy perfectly (which we very rarely ever do), we are at best playing an even money game in the long run. Basically, its just too steep a hill to climb. The 8 deck badly cut shoes are pretty steep too but still better then 6:5 single deck and at least with them you can Wong and obtain a marginal advantage. Even that though, most good AP's consider the advantage to be too marginal for the risk.

Bottom line, almost any blackjack game on the casino floor has a better edge for the player then 6:5 single. Unless of course you visit places like the RIO where they pay even money single, or you are silly enough to try counting what the house refers to as "multiple deck hand held" games. (Seems like the casino's just keep trying to figure out new games that are even that much worse then the old ones. I suppose that is their job...*sigh*)

Good Luck.

D

I understand your reasoning. The same lines of thinking led me to play a game that paid even money on Blackjacks- very bad business.
Here is a link below to an excellent article by Ken Smith that eloquently explains the pitfalls of this abomination:

It is (almost) all about the lower BJ payoff. You get an average of one BJ every 21 hands. Assuming that you use a $5 unit (or some multiple of $5), you are being shorted .3 units per BJ. .3 divided by 21 is .014, or 1.4% disadvantage from this rule alone. Note that if you are foolish enough to play anything other than a multiple of $5, you will be shorted more. In the extreme example, if you bet $4, then a BJ pays $4, so you are being sorted $2 or .5 units per BJ for a disadvantage of 2.4%. This disadvantage of 1.4%-2.4% is in addition to the normal house edge.

Lastly, your counting system will give you inaccurate information about your changing advantage unless you custom design a system for 6:5. The effect of removal is obviously different for tens and aces at 6:5 given the lower BJ payout.

If a casino was dealing to the bottom of the deck and tolerated a 100:1 spread, then it might be worthwhile to develop a cutomized counting system for this game. Otherwise, you are just wasting your time. Assuming an increase in player edge of .3% per TC point (just an educated guess), the TC would need to be +5 to overcome just the 6:5 rule. Practically speaking, you are looking at a TC of +6 before you are break-even.

but,,if ya got only 52 cards,,arent they a bit easier to count and be accurate on?

A little, yeah. That's why we are 100% accurate in predicting this is a BAD GAME -- for the counter and for the noncounter.

It cant be all about the bj payoff being lower

Yes it can. Why can't it?

how many bjs per hour ect,,

If you get 100 hand per hour, it's almost 5 blackjacks an hour. Each BJ adds 50% to your advantage on that hand -- FIFTY PERCENT! -- unless you're playing a cheating 6:5 game.

what about the counter using and keeping the edge when it come to double down hands,,ddown after splits,ect?there are many more counting oppetunties than just knowing when to up your bet for blackjacks,right?,,,

That's fine, as long as you know you're playing a losing game.

should our counting edges keep the money comming in from these hands throughout the game,enough to compensate for the low bj payoffs?

Maybe it should. But it doesn't.

Look. Even if you have a TC of +4, if you look down at your hand and see it's not a blackjack, you're already playing at a disadvantage. That's what taking away the blackjack bonus does. 6:5 BJ holds NO INTEREST for card counters.

ETF

Which is the result of getting shorted by 20% on each blackjack.

Why else would a casino replace a hold pit of 6 deck shoes with single decks?

In about Feb. of this year, MathProf. posted some extrapolated #'s as regarding this version of our beloved game.

Surprisingly (at least to me), was that a 6:5 player actually gains the Advantage at TC of +2! Albeit 0.02%, by my recollection. Put quite simply, playing at +2, you would win 2 CENTS for every $100. bet. Compare this to the approx. 80 CENTS profit per $100. bet in regular SD (at TC's of +2).

Anyhow, using above-noted source for the base #'s, then pen, napkin, and calculator, AND applying same to MY normal playing style, i.e., medium bets at neutral counts, little bets in neg., and Biggins in pos. counts, I derived the following conclusions:

(1) Break-even at 8:1 spread, using AOII + Ace-side ct. + 8-side ct.
(2) Profitable at 10:1, using AOII + Ace and 8-side cts.
(3) AND ONLY IF I RE-DEFINED NEUTRAL to be "0 to +4"....AND made my

Max. bet at 2+% advantage, instead of my usual 3+%.

Further calculations on the Back-side of same Napkin revealed that unlike a decent SD game, wherein one can expect to be making Max. Bet up to 24% of all hands played....this dropped to 10% in 6:5.

Separately, using same pen and calculator, but the back of a big Envelope (instead of a Napkin), and using Bryce Carlson's derivation method, I reasoned that:

(A) Insurance decisions must be nearly PERFECT for 6:5, the Ace- AND

8-side cts., while OPTIONAL to play with Advantage in Regular SD,

are now MANDATORY! Relative Weight = 3/20.
(B) Betting must be OPTIMIZED, due to the spread required...in Reg.

SD, Bet changes take "2nd fiddle" to Play...NOT the case with

6:5....with so few chances to make your Biggin', you must know

when they are there! Added importance to the ACE-side ct.

Relative weight = 10/20.
(C) Play changes will still be important in any SD game...relative

weight 8/20.

Therefore, I added, weighted, divided, rounded, etc., and thus determined that the best system for 6:5 SD is AOII WITH side cts. of both Aces and 8's. Surplus of either and/or both, whether played and/or unplayed, must factor in to Insurance decisions, and Aces into Betting decisions.

TO THE TEST, I must admit that I played this 6:5 game within above parameters, during recent LV trip. Starting with 2 hands of $10. at a $5 table, dropping to one hand of $5. at any TC of +4 AND LESS, and going WITHOUT RAMP to 2 hands of $50. each when justified, the following occured, and as demarcated in columns "A" and "B" below:

"A" "B"

(S) (D)ealer got very nervous with my Max. Bets...PC did not care.
(U) (I)n-spite of side cts., lost MOST big bets.
(C) (C)omps aplenty from my 6:5 adventure.
(K) (K), i.e, I lost $1k in 30 min. playing this system.
(S) (S)lots would have gave better odds, PLUS an entry into the free

weekly drawing.

Therefore, starting with column "A":

S-U-C-K-S,

then applying linear correlation coefficient to column "B":

D-I-C-K-S,

then de-hyphenating same as required by the Paperwork Reduction Act, can lead us to only ONE Conclusion:

6:5 BJ "SUCKS DICKS".

Certainly, I state that many of you Math and Computer Folks can FAULT my math, BUT I CHALLENGE YOU TO FAULT MY CONCLUSION!

P.S.: All of above soon to be published in the "Journal of Irreproducible (sp?) Results". The NAPKIN is long gone...the ENVELOPE, well, I hope it was the one I sent my Tax Return in....I really doubt the IRS will question my DEDUCTIONS if THEY see the math on the back of THAT ENVELOPE!

phantom007.

gotta tel ya,,all info was ecellent.All but et fans,a bit sarcastic old chap,,when people wish to learn,they humble themselves to ask others,others who may be of more intelligence than themselves.To answer one who asks for knowledge,in a sarcastic manor may very well be at some level of humor for the writer of the reponse,but,not much help at all for the one wishing to learn.One may even consider it in poor taste.along the lines of answering a question,with a question.
But,i do thank evryone,really,all the info was helpful,i will later ask on how to aquire such cunning wit as et fan!,,lol,,thanks agin,k

if ya got only 52 cards,,arent they a bit easier to count...

If you're good enough not to ever make mistakes, it's the same. You can count a 6D shoe once or count 1D six times. It's pretty much the same for a counter who is accurate with keeping count. However, there is just more large # TC conversion work to do on multi D if you're not using KO count.

.. of the problem may be in fact why you take ET's response so negatively. I, for one, do not see any malicious intent or poor treatment of you or your post.

Perhaps the reply does not properly explain the problems of the 6:5 game in strict mathematical terms. There is also a risk taken when replying to a post in "conversational form" in that without the verbal & physical cues of normal conversation, the replies (especially if the replies come with short questions) can easily be taken as very sarcastic, demeaning, and patronizing when in fact that was not the intent at all.

The internet has given a large number of people the ability to express their ideas. Unfortunately, many do not know how to properly use the written word. (not necessarily you ET fan, so don't get upset here) This is painfully clear from the emails, posts, and IMs I receive at work and at home. If I get one more email from my younger brother (who has a graduate college degree for God's sake) where he uses the letter "u" for the word "you", I'm going to have my loyal worshippers go to Denver and burn down his house. (I am an Egyptian god in my spare time after all.)

... direct answers are nowadays often taken as rude. There's an unfortunate tendency to dance around the head of a pin in an effort to be politically correct. The problem is, when you're playing blackjack for money, the cards don't give you any chance to talk back. I'd rather have someone think I was rude, than have someone lose money because of my failure to answer in plain language.

ETF

From the card-counter's perspective, 6:5 BJ games are bad because the player's main "advantage" over the house is the fact that BJs pay 3:2, as opposed to even-money for the house. The advantage player who must overcome an edge of .5% in a typical game, must now overcome an edge of about 1.5%. This is part of the reason that card counting in Baccarat, while possible, is not usually done by players.
Also, the most important aspect of a good/bad card-counting game is not the number of decks, but the PENETRATION. Most of the 6:5 BJ games deal typical single deck penetration of about 50%. Unless the casino knows that you are counting cards, they will deal at least 66.7% out of an 8 deck shoe.
Finally, 6:5 games are bad because to overcome the disadvantage of the lower BJ payoff, the player must make a greater increase in bet size. For example, in a 3:2 game when a BJ is "due", the player who bets $10 will make an additional $5 because of the BJ. However, in a 6:5 game, to make $5 the player must bet $25. Higher player bets usually subject the player to additional scrutiny as a card counter.
I hope this helps.