Zen Count with 8 & 9 Side Count

Hi all!

Pretty new to blackjack here, but when I first started out I learned the Hi-Low count and quickly saw that the Zen Count had a better BE/PE and was only adding 7s to the +1s. This post will relate only to double-deck blackjack, as that's the only game I play and feel that the highest profitability from this strategy would be in double-deck(if not single, of course).

The PE for Zen remains pretty low however. I thought of the idea of a side count of course, but most side counts I see revolve around Aces and the probability of getting blackjack. I have practiced a lot, and have mastered the Zen Count/Card Counting basics/speed etc.. But I am about to incorporate a side count of 8s and 9s, and want feedback on just how beneficial you feel this strategy would be.

The idea behind it is not to count for an increased chance of blackjack, but to cover the opportunity of the weak PE in my card count strategy by side counting 8s/9s to help decide what to play on hands 12-16, the most common hands you see. Essentially by covering the last two card values that aren't being counted, I think I can bet based on a standard bet spread with the Zen Count, and use the 8/9 side-count to affect only my decision making for plays.

Like I said I'm pretty new to Blackjack so I'm hoping to get some feedback here.. But obviously knowing how many 8s-9s there are remaining in the double-deck(8 8s, and 8 9s, two different side-counts) combined with your true-count from Zen, you can decide whether to hit or stand on stiff hands -

Ex. #1) 12 and 13, 8s and 9s are the best cards you could get so if there were 8+ remaining combined with a negative true count, hitting would be optimal vs. any dealer card(would you agree with this?).

Ex. #2) 14-16, 8s and 9s would be a bust therefore if you had a flat true count but had Two 8s and One 9 left in the deck with an entire deck remaining, you might decide to hit, since you know there are more cards remaining that you would not bust with. There are possible busts with 5-7 of course with 14-16, but unless I can incorporate a side-count of 7s too there is no way to cover that base(unless you can help!)

Ex. #3) 11 vs. 6, True-count at +1 near the end of the deck, you'd double 11 on 6. But the 8-9 side-count is saying there are no 8s and 9s left in the deck, this may change your decision of doubling to only a hit, if you prefer to avoid risk.

The only other thing I'll briefly mention is that I would prefer to incorporate a side-count of 7s and go back to standard Hi-Lo count since the side-count will give me more accuracy. This would obviously increased the playing efficiency a lot making a hand of 14 nearly crystal-clear as far as whether to hit/stand.

The entire idea behind this is for me to have the ability to use a simple count(Zen) and use other techniques to cover the opportunity of a low playing efficiency. I am still in the process of researching all of this and other techniques/side-counts and will post any updates here, but I'm very curious to know what other, more experienced, blackjack players will think of my idea.

Thanks in advance for any feedback!

Sincerely,

Wanna-Be Gambler

Play HIOPTII. It side counts Aces and 7s.

The 8/9 side count will improve double downs on 10/11 and cause the dealer to bust more often when there are an abundance of them left.

Yeah but that arrangement would be better suited for SuperFun21 or 6/5 Blackjack and assigning the ace a + value.

Would I maybe be better switching to a multi-parameter Omega II count with an Ace and 8 side count? I can handle two separate side-counts.. which if I'm making my decisions properly I could see my PE going over "the" .7

Question.. Looking at the Omega II indices, if I switch the value of 6 to be +1 instead of +2, will that change my basic strategy variations for this count? Or any count for that matter?

Thanks

HIOPTII outperforms Omega II. Ask Don if you doubt me.

Buy a good BJ software program, plug in your parameters, generate some win rates, and see if the gain is worth the added work. Remember, the more you complicate the counting, the less time you can play before you tire and make errors. Almost every card counter went through what you're considering when they were just starting out.

Like I said I'm pretty new to Blackjack so I'm hoping to get some feedback here.

Hi-lo with a proper spread will get the money. The rest is an unnecessary complication for little gain.

You would be better off to avoid double decks and learn to play shoes right from the start. A double deck player's life expectancy is short.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone I appreciate it!

The Hi-Lo is a great count but the PE is too low for me to feel comfortable staying with it when there are more developed systems available. I'm leaning towards the HiOptII with an Ace(and 8) side-count or the Advanced Omega II with Ace(and 8) side-count. I'm leaning towards the HiOptII due to simplicity but in my head I feel with the Omega 2 including my side counts it may be stronger than the HiOpt due to the fact that every card value will have some sort of analysis of how many are in the deck and/or if the count is high/low. HiOpt has a 0 value for A, 8, and 9 which makes me lean towards a third side-count for 9s but I cannot.

Going to take the advice on testing this out before I go any further as far as my capability to count, the Hi-Lo has been mastered and I don't want to waste my time in 6-8 deck shoes in my local casino the odds have been terrible. I am going to practice practice practice and with the strategy(my focus on PE and side-counting) I've chosen it won't thrive in 4+ decks the Hi-Lo just isn't cutting it for me.

I hope I'm not miserable to give feedback to.. I just have to be honest about the path I want to head down(double-deck with a multiparameter count) and get the best feedback for that specific path. I don't want to waste my time on something that has less odds, if I'm smart enough to learn double-deck and become good at it that's where I will make my money, otherwise I will move onto my career path that is still there waiting for me :D

Thanks again for all the feedback, let me know what you guys think.

To sum up -

Planning on utilizing the Advanced Omega II/HiOptII with a side-count of Aces and a side-count of (7-9 depending) that can help raise PE of my stiff hands. I read that side-counting 7s with the HiOpt can skyrocket your PE for stiff hands.

From what I've read the M.I.T. blackjack team as well as the Tommy Hyland team used Hi-Lo. I use Fred Renzeys Kiss III count-an unbalanced count and play 6 deck shoes. It works for me.The Kiss III count is explained in Blackjack Bluebook II. Good cards!

He will enjoy playing DD with Kiss III.

I use Kiss III with 6 decks and it works for me.

I have learned a lot, (food for thought on this thread). You gave very wise advice to Wanna-Be-Gambler. 2d is dead, the game is more brutal now.
Now the comment related to proper spread has givin me flack from time to time. If your going to use the Kelly critier, I suggest you be a lot better at counting than I am at spelling. (sorry Don)

As a P/T CC, I have had much greater rewards from smaller spreads. 6d about 2x's a week. Sreads between 4 & 6 seem to work fine for me, using simple HiLo sometimes with ace side count.

As stated, I only use the A's side count when my simple little brain is full charged. Other wise you will make stupid very expensive mistakes.

Great thread and thanks to all, LWC.

But lousy for pitch games. There you need level 2 system and at least a side count.