Why do people play BJ?

BJ is not the best game in the house. But I like it and that�s why I�m playing but in the same time I�m aware that is not the BEST game. Well, if you just flat bet the game at all times you will lose at a rate probably worse then European Roulette (single zero). If you don�t split or double you will be around �2.5% or a little more. Now, to bring the game to even or at �0.30% you�ve got to risk more money while doubling and splitting. And this is only playing Basic Strategy alone. Forget about card counting. If you get involved in CC you are talking some serious money fluctuations.

Baccarat on the other hand is no brain and even if you close your eyes and just throw a chip anywhere on the table except the �tie� you will be the most at �1.1%. You will see some great streaks in Baccarat that you�ll never see in BJ.

Blackjack is the most profitable game played against the house. A loose video poker machine might pay off a good percentage (I don't know anything about slots), but it will never generate more long-term money than a high stakes blackjack game will. The capital might flucturate, but it will not vary much compared to the other
casino games.

Regarding baccarat, you said that streaks occur more frequently. Though, you can't, unfortunately, fortell a streak. Until the time a more money-generating-pretty-safe-game appears, I guess most of the people on this board will stick to blackjack.

/Robert V. Lux

to say this Robert, so I'll just say it.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Baccarat does in fact provide a keen player with substantially greater rewards....with less risk.

Maybe you should read a few more books before jumping to conclusions such as the one you made.

"Baccarat does in fact provide a keen player with substantially greater rewards....with less risk."

Baccarat is a negative expecation game. There's, yet, no way, to neat the game, except with Tamburin's baccarat CC system. I never said the capital flucturations won't change at all, I said it won't vary by much. Now, there's a big difference.

"Maybe you should read a few more books before jumping to conclusions such as the one you made."

Well, maybe you are the one who should read more books and learn some casino maths, before making remarks on remarks. I have read more than 30 books on gambling (mostly blackjack) and I read one new book every three week. Albeit 30+ books don't make me an overall expert on casino gambling, I know a great deal. I stand up for my word, also the above stated.

Final thoughts: how come I always get dissed by new comers?

/Robert V. Lux

another way before YOU attack Robert! He is young and fairly new to gambling (and I'm not even sure if I like him) BUT... he is right. Baccarat IS a negative expectation game! Small casino edge, but difficult to overcome. You will eventually lose more than you win.

The main problem is that "counting" or tracking cards in Baccarat, although somewhat helpful, can not provide a significant player advantage as the player and dealer draw cards to a very similar set of rules. Not the case in Blackjack. Decks that are rich in 10's and Ace's provide a significant player advantage, unlike any other casino game.

P.S. No offense Robert. My money is on you! :)

...dealing with a pointless troll but the troll is correct in this case.

Baccarat is a negative expecation game. There's, yet, no way, to neat the game, except with Tamburin's baccarat CC system. I never said the capital flucturations won't change at all, I said it won't vary by much. Now, there's a big difference.

Tamburin (and Dick Rahm's) system is not designed to win consistently. It minimizes the effect of the house edge so that the gambler may be able to profit on comps or simply enjoy himself a little more.
Baccarat is no more a negative expectation than blackjack is. Advanced counting strategies can yield significant return on investment, as can strategies sometimes used at blackjack such as sequencing and card steering.

The main problem is that "counting" or tracking cards in Baccarat, although somewhat helpful, can not provide a significant player advantage as the player and dealer draw cards to a very similar set of rules. Not the case in Blackjack. Decks that are rich in 10's and Ace's provide a significant player advantage, unlike any other casino game.

Try taking a baccarat deck and stripping it of odd-valued cards. You will discover that ties occur over twice as often as normal (there are only five possible totals, 0,2,4,6 and 10, instead of the usual 10). Play a hundred or so hands with yourself. The advantage is so large on the tie wager that large numbers of trials aren't needed, it should be obvious the card composition has changed the raw odds.

Such opportunities are rare, but they do occur. When they do occur expert baccarat counters risk a very significant % of your bankroll and can make as much as an average 4% return on investment per hour.

Btw I don't believe it is ever wise to say such and such a game is negative expectation. For most players blackjack is a negative expectation game. Even apparently invinvcible games such as Keno can be beaten under certain conditions. It helps to keep an open mind...

"Try taking a baccarat deck and stripping it of odd-valued cards. You will discover that ties occur over twice as often as normal (there are only five possible totals, 0,2,4,6 and 10, instead of the usual 10). Play a hundred or so hands with yourself."

Ok... I'm NOT a baccarat player, but as a test, I'll give it a look. Most of my knowledge of gambling is gleaned through reading, internet, and hard sweat. My "guess" is that you MAY be able to gain an advantage under certain conditions, but again my "guess" is that it is rare, and the times of advantage are fleeting!

"Btw I don't believe it is ever wise to say such and such a game is negative expectation. For most players blackjack is a negative expectation game. Even apparently invinvcible games such as Keno can be beaten under certain conditions. It helps to keep an open mind..."

You are right in that it is incorrect to say NEVER. I have had to eat my own words on more than one occasion. However... it does ADD to the learning process. I like to think I DO have an open mind, maybe sometimes quick to dispatch what I consider to be garbage, incorect, or simply inaccurate. Sometimes that works to my disadvantage... most of the time, though, it "shortens" the chase!

I determine the games to play and the rules to look for by a couple of methods.

1) Professional's opinion. Which I consider you one! However, that is "biased" somewhat as you are in the business of selling books. Not a negative AT ALL. I admire your ability and good manner. But I have to remember that it IS biased.

2) Sims. Your test of a hundred games is fine but if I was serious about baccarat, I would want to see some numbers that I generate. What? No one makes a sim software package for baccarat? Why not? (Another red flag.)

3 Backoffs, barrings. I know, everyone hates them, but they hold a "clue" to the effectiveness of a system. If the casinos are not turning your business away, there must be a reason.

Ok... I'm NOT a baccarat player, but as a test, I'll give it a look. Most of my knowledge of gambling is gleaned through reading, internet, and hard sweat. My "guess" is that you MAY be able to gain an advantage under certain conditions, but again my "guess" is that it is rare, and the times of advantage are fleeting!

Rare opportunities are. But I am prepared to do a lot of waiting for advantages of 200% or more where I can optimally bet 20-30% of my bankroll, amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars with no heat.

You might try looking at blackjack card counting through the eyes of the baccarat counter-your advantage rarely exceeds 2% on any hand, a scarcely tangible edge barely worth bothering with.

Sometimes that works to my disadvantage... most of the time, though, it "shortens" the chase!

It does indeed shorten the chase. But you must ask yourself whether you want to be grinding away at the tables with the same well-known methods in twenty years time or whether you want to try and hit the big time with a spectacular score. If you are after the latter (and you may not be), then you must wade through all the drivel to get the occassional nugget of discovery.

1) Professional's opinion. Which I consider you one! However, that is "biased" somewhat as you are in the business of selling books. Not a negative AT ALL. I admire your ability and good manner. But I have to remember that it IS biased.

I am biased certainly. But not about selling books. There are very finite numbers of baccarat players. There are even more finite number of baccarat players who read about baccarat. I got a $1500 advance for my Baccarat for the clueless. The sales are a long way off making that back in royalties, and when they have done so the book will be out-of-print. Effectively, I have no financial interest in the book.

2) Sims. Your test of a hundred games is fine but if I was serious about baccarat, I would want to see some numbers that I generate. What? No one makes a sim software package for baccarat? Why not? (Another red flag.)

Good question. I suspect the answer is a) there is no money in it. The blackjack sim authors don't make minimum wage for their efforts and blackjack is much more popular than baccarat and b) baccarat is so easy to program even someone with a cursory understanding of a hi-level language can churn out a passable sim, making commercial software redundant. Having said that, DL Suggs does market something called Baccarat Buster, though I'd hesistate to recommend it because of its terminal user-unfriendliness.
Fortunately, Abdul Jalib M'hall provided a very detailed piece of simulation data on baccarat card counting viewable at bjmath.com. The source code is still around somewhere on the web, but I am not sure where.

3 Backoffs, barrings. I know, everyone hates them, but they hold a "clue" to the effectiveness of a system. If the casinos are not turning your business away, there must be a reason.

I've been barred from baccarat. I know of at least two others who this has happened to.
Another point is that in 99 casinos I play in I will lose small amounts of money. In the 100th casino I will win back all the losses and some profit. I am a serious financial danger to that 100th casino and I will probably get barred from it. However, the 99 other casinos are oblivious to the danger and carry on comping me to the hilt. That is just down to the session distribution of baccarat card counting.

that his native tongue might not be English?

(I wish I was able to write in Swedish as well as Robert V. Lux manages to write in English!)