I have been using the hi/low count for several years as a hobby, but want to start taking things more seriously.
Which system should I learn for the games most offered in my area (6 decks, h17, das, no surrender?)
Difficulty is not an issue. I am excellent at mental math and concentration...and not afraid to spend time learning.
Any suggestions? Thank you!
Choose a count where the aces are counted completely separate and not part of the main count. I personally use AO2. However, I believe there are a couple better systems for multi deck games.
I have been using the hi/low count for several years as a hobby, but want to start taking things more seriously.
Which system should I learn for the games most offered in my area (6 decks, h17, das, no surrender?)
Difficulty is not an issue. I am excellent at mental math and concentration...and not afraid to spend time learning.
I would suggest the Red Seven count, from Arnold Snyder's Blackbelt In Blackjack. This is the count I have used for years (with good results, I might add). It works great for multi-deck play, and is easy to learn. There are a few indices that factor into it, but not so many that it creates a problem. All in all, I think you'll like it a lot.
A newer variation of the Red Seven count is Knock-Out Blackjack, by Olaf Vancura and Ken Fuchs. Very good and worth looking at, IMO.
You can order both of these books from the bj21 catalog:
https://secure.bj21.com/order/order1.htm
Hope this helps.
Regards,
drumz1
When you're playing multi-deck shoes the system's Betting Correlation (BC) is much more important than it's Playing Efficiency (PE). BC is the counts accuracy in telling you when to raise bets and how much the advantage is. PE is how efficient the count is at telling you when to vary from Basic Strategy, the play of the hands. The majority of profit in blackjack comes from accurate betting. Counting Aces separately will only improve the PE and is more advantageous in 1 or 2 deck games. Counts like Unbalanced Zen II offer a compromise between BC and PE with no side count and perform well across the board. If I were you I'd look into the Uston SS or Halves count. Maybe somebody who's run simulations can tell us which counts are best for your particular situation- I know it's a popular set of rules.
I have been using the hi/low count for several years as a hobby, but want to start taking things more seriously.
If you already know HiLo, why complicate matters? What you may gain in performance, you will probably lose in mistakes.
I know A02 and High opt.2 are definately harder to use at multi deck games because of the ace side count BUT my understanding is, they definately out perform the ace reckoned counts.
I have to agree with Panama Rick,that in multi deck games,BC is more important and Hi-Lo has a 97% BC. People have won thousands with that count.
Cleetus, if you want to step it up to level 2, "the complete zen count for multi decks" works superior. It counts the Ace as -1. You CAN'T learn the indices from Blackbelt in Blackjack because they're not in there. A poster named "FLASH" posted the site you can go to to get the indices for free. His post is a couple of posts down on the main page of the message board.
You said that you don't mind doing mental math. In that case, they're are Level 2 counts like Advanced Omega 2 and High Opt 2 that count the Aces separately and perform superior to all other counts.It's tough to do the ace sidecount in multi decks but if you can do it, then go for it. You'll earn more if you do it correctly.
You can learn Omega from the book "blackjack for blood" by Bryce Carlson and you can learn High opt 2 from the Book "the High Opt2 system for winning at casino blackjack" by Lance Humble and Julian Braun. You can get it from this website www.gamblersbook.com
If you want to go to a higher level count beyond Hi Low the obvious choice is Halves. It's similar to Hi Low so the transition is easy and the indices are similar.
Professional Blackjack by Stanford Wong would be the place to start.
Even if you have the skill to play a more complicated system flawlessly, it's unlikely you'll be able to do so for as many hours per day as you could with the Hi-Lo.
After using the Hi-Lo for about fifteen years, I switched to the Zen count, using indexes I generated myself with CVData for the precise rules against which I was playing. I practiced at home for a few months before using the new count (at least for me) in a casino. I found the mental fatigue limited the number of hours I could play per day. Though I was expected to make a few dollars more per hour, this was outweighed by the fact that I could play fewer hours. After a few months with the Zen, I switched back to the Hi-Lo, realizing my total income was greater was the latter.
In deciding whether to switch to a more complicated count, make sure you consider the effect doing so may have on your hours played per day, and hence on your total profit from blackjack.
David
The original poster asked what count he should learn next. Going on his post he sounds experienced and capable. It does seem to me that Halves is the logical step up from Hi Low. This is Wong's site after all. LOL
Given if it's tiring and cuts down on your endurance then a higher level count may be impracticle. However, the reverse is also true. If you make more per hour then you can spend less time in a casino.
A 3% to 10% improvement of the stronger systems can be very advantageous when you think of:
large bankrolls
hourly wage
NO
Probably what individuals need to do is be honest with themselves and try to pick the system that best suits them and the conditions they will face. Experience should be able to tell them if they have chosen well and whether they should move up or down in complexity.
Hi-Lo to Halves years back, went from being able to play about 12-14+ hours down to 7-9 hours before errors started appearing (that I was aware of). EV difference, according to Professional Blackjack's benchmark game, is on the order of $17 dollars with Halves to $16 dollars with Hi-Lo, less than a 7% increase for a lot more work. Stayed with Halves and can't complain but if I had the same choice to make again, knowing what I now know, I'd stick with Hi-Lo. Forget that "You use a single level count? Well, I use a second level count." Third guy says, smugly, "I use a third level count!" Egos get you broke.
btw If you move your money with the count and use basic strategy instead of indices you still realize around 70% of the gain from counting.
there's only one don schlesinger. he is my hero and nobody else can compare so quit trying to correct everybody's mistakes. you're not that good at it like don is.
You're an idiot.
I have been using the hi-low for so long it is like breathing to me. I can do it while talking, looking around, even drunk off my ass. Believe me, I've had sober friends play at the same table and they told me I played my hands perfectly (even the BS deviations).
I just wanna kick things up a notch...gain an extra few cents EV here and there. I've experimented with KO, Uston SS, and Wong halves. No problems playing any of them.
Just wanted to know which was the best to use in the game most available in my area.
According to Blackjack Attack, 3rd ed., the best counts for 6D are
Hi-Opt II
Advanced Omega II
Revere Advanced Point Count
Halves
Uston Advanced Point Count
Though I listed them in order of decreasing SCORE, they're all very close, so pick whichever is easiest for you. These are for 5/6, S17, DAS, LS, play all. I realize these conditions are a bit different from what you specified, but the counts listed above are still the best for most 6D conditions. The book goes into much more detail, with specific SCOREs for various spreads, back counting, etc., but this should get you started.
