Where were the backoffs?

I just returned from my trip to Vegas. I played 6:5 BJ, not the best game exactly, but only for BS players. If you can get away with a huge spread, 6:5 can be more profitable than regular Single Deck with limited rules. What do I mean HUGE? 1 to 5? 1 to 7? NO. I mean 1 to 40. And the dealer dealing 8-9 hands per deck one-on-one. Sound impossible? I played for nearly 4 hours at Treasure Island, 3 hours at Casino Royale, and other various casinos. I spread $5 to $200 and was never given a second glance. Treasure Island was the best for penetration. Most of the decks I made it through had less than 15 cards left. A couple of times the dealer almost ran out of cards. Sure, the pit lady was watching too but didn't mind my spread at all. When the 200 went up (with 3 5's, 4 6's, 2 4's, and only 3 10's out too) she peeked over but went about her business as usual.

So where are all the backoffs I hear so much about? I was up 1500 at Treasure Island at one point and no one cared. Sad to say my overall trip I lost money, partly due to carnival games and craps (I play BJ seriously but still enjoy the ploppy enjoyment of Pai Gow and such), but mainly due to plain bad variance. Anyway, fun trip. I'll be out to get 'em next time.

you went to the effort to learn a good count system and can get the advantage playing blackjack, why would you want to waste all that time and effort by playing carnie games? If you continue to do this, you'll never come out ahead in the long run.

I have never heard of any B/O's at 6:5 BJ. With 2.3% advantage, or whatever it is, casinos would be foolish to "bite the hand that feeds them". Also, few AP's play said game, except for pure entertainment, i.e., to make fun of the others playing the game. Therefore, one sees few reports regarding 6:5, except of course: Can't believe those idiots play that game!"

You posted something to the effect of: "6:5 with wide spread is better than 3:2 with bad rules". Certainly you showed some 40:1 spreads and mega-deep pen. However, I still doubt that 6:5 would ever beat 3:2.

If for example, a 3:2 game disallowed DD, Splits, Surrender, and for thet matter, even Insurance, I doubt that the Disadvantage would still be as bad as 6:5.

Phantom007.

I made similar comments about 6:5 in a post a while back, not sure where it was (here, mayor's board, advantageplayer, etc) and someone replied with very similar results, that 6:5 could be beaten with an aggressive spread. As the old saying goes, "I prefer to beat it with my feet" by walking away, but if it continues to be so prevalent, I might start running some sims to see what is needed to offset the significant house edge it produces...

will beat 6:5. However, gain in minimal, in that, from memory, only reach +++ Cts. about 6-8% of the time...compare to circa. 24% for 3:2.

I have played this version twice, once out of curiosity (cost me $1k) and once for cover (cost me $300).

Original poster of this thread indicated getting little attention at 40:1 spread...hopefully he/she will post their wins.

phantom007.

You mentioned that + counts happen less frequently, but I didn't understand why since 3:2 and 6:5 uses the same decks. Or are you factoring in the additional house advantage, and the higher count required before we have an advantage? I assume the latter after thinking about it, meaning your + count was probably not exactly the term you intended. Maybe + advantage???

In any case, I'm not going to try to beat that, I prefer to see it die a slow and miserable death if at all possible. :)

Ironically enough, I don't like to gamble at casinos much. Sure, I like to go if someone else is going, or maybe a couple times a year. I used to go a lot, two or three times a month, as a ploppy in the beginning, but since I've been a dealer (for about 3 years now) I've really slowed down on casino gambling. As you may expect, I've lost a good share of cash before I learned card counting. So now there is an underlying fear of losing again. After all, the risk is still there. I need to build up a good bankroll before I jump in with both feet again.

However, I have discovered the world of No Limit Poker tournaments. Much better EV than on BJ, and little bankroll required. I have studied the game as extensively as BJ and so far am getting 23 percent return on my investment, (Since April 2004, playing 1 to 4 games per day).

As for the carny games, I like to play low limit. Much like you might like going to a movie and spending money you have zero chance of getting back, or going to a nice restaurant or whatever, ya know.

I was only there for vacation. I assume that most posters here like to frequent the same casinos, and may not be able to spread 40:1 on a daily basis. However Vegas has many casinos, pick a few out that you can visit occasionally and act like a tourist. It doesn't even need to be on the strip.

If they allow SD 6:5 wonging, we could make a quick stab now and then while cruzing by the 6:5 tables. What does the TC minimum have to be to do a quick wong-in hit with two hands?

is still a dead give away to the pit that you're a counter even if your losing at a bad rules game such a 6:5.

Shouldn't this be computed as

TC = 1 + (house advantage for 6:5 instead of 3:2) / .5, which would give us the "break even point"? I know I have seen that 6:5 adds about 1.5% to the house edge, so it would seem that at a TC of +4, the game is "even".

My wild guess...

take it with a grain of salt.

with two or three hands on the table, one deal of the cards for a quick hit, then leaving. They will hardly suspect a counter back-counting at 6:5 & then wonging-in in this manner.

that indicated +EV at about +2 TC (again from memory). However, unlike regular SD, where at +2 your EV might be at +0.65%, and increase 0.5% with each +1 advance in the Count, in 6:5, at +2 the EV is something like +.01, and increases in MUCH smaller increments that does 3:2 at the Count increases.

Thus, one only gets Max. Bet opportunities at TC's above about +8, which occur in 6:5 with about the same frequency as they do in 8-Deck.

As to Wonging....guess it could work, though most of these games are "No Mid-Shoe Entry". If you could do it, would likely only get one hand, especially it playing 2 hands.

Hopefully, these 6:5 games will become "PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH THE DISPLAY" in a BJ Museum someday (SOON)!

phantom007.

the wong-in number is about +2.5 or more.

"Thus, one only gets Max. Bet opportunities at TC's above about +8, which occur in 6:5 with about the same frequency as they do in 8-Deck."

The frequency of +8 or +2, etc...is not dependent on the pay-out of BJs. You will see +8 TC more frequently in a SD game than in an 8D game. Take a look at Griffin or BJRM and compare the frequency of specific TCs for different number of decks.

What is different is that in a 6:5 game, a TC of +8 is not worth as much as it is in a normal BJ game.

I'm interested in understanding the +2.5, when we normally start to ramp the bet at +2 for normal (good) rules, always assuming that TC=1 is the "break-even" point. I find it difficult to believe that .5 TC is enough to offset the 6:5 1.5% extra house advantage...

So how does that work?

With all the waiting around you'll do, your "score" will be ~$5 an hour. Better to play 6/8 h17 no sur, no DAS. Even better -- learn to flip hamburgers.

ETF

while strolling by on our way to the good games, an advantage situation may occur and just happens to present it self on a 6:5 table. It's nice when we notice it and can exploit it. I think it may even make for a "cover play". Only stupid people play 6:5. Right? ;-)