When to reset to zero on unbalanced counting???

OK, say I am using an unbalanced counting system (KO system). A brand new 6 pack of decks was just opened and everything is new and fresh. OK, I start counting from zero when using an unbalanced system right?

Also, When the count is say 7, they decide to shuffle the remainig decks (let's say 4 decks left). Do I now go back and start at zero? Or continue from 7? What about using a balanced system?

Also, in an ubalanced system, what count number is good to start raising my bets? It is my understanding that in an unbalanced system, I don't have to worry about true count convesions.

Please post answers within this forum. Thanks.

Jimblackjack25

PS. Sorry if this sounds like a beginner question, well, because it is. I am used to the HI-Lo, but just looking into this KO system. Thanks.

Jim Black,

With KO, you are correct that you "reset" the running count (RC) at the beginning of each shoe. However, you are incorrect that the RC (necessarily) resets to zero: instead, you reset the RC to a value called the "Initial Running Count", or IRC for short.

With standard KO, when you're playing an "N"-deck game (where N = 1 or 6 or 8 or however many decks the casino is using), the IRC is -4*(N-1), so for a 1-deck game the IRC is indeed zero, but for a 6-deck game the IRC is -4*(6-1) = -20.

If you're serious about using KO, I'd recommend that you buy the book Knock-Out Blackjack--The Easiest Card Counting System Ever Devised by Olaf Vancura and Ken Fuchs, which describes the system in excellent detail.

If you'd like information about an even easier version of KO called "reKO" (for "ridiculously easy KO"), click the link below. The website also lists suggested betting ramps.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand

OK I think I got it. But I am just a little confused on one point.

OK, We're at a fresh table. Brand new shoe 6 decks. shuffled nice and all. I do my math and start the count at -20 as per your instructions -4*(6-1) = -20 (Unbalanced count) (KO count).

OK, we're halfway through the game and the count is +5 let's say, and there are 3 decks left. The dealer decides to shuffle these 3 remaining decks. Do I pick up the count from where I left off of +5? or do I do the math and start from -4*(3-1) = -8?

I would think I start from where I left off because even though there are 3 decks left, the remaining cards within those 3 decks remain the same whether shuffled or not. Please help. Thanks.

Jim black,

First, to answer your question, you said:
OK, we're halfway through the game and the count is +5 let's say, and there are 3 decks left. The dealer decides to shuffle these 3 remaining decks. Do I pick up the count from where I left off of +5? or do I do the math and start from -4*(3-1) = -8?

Once the dealer shuffles the six decks together, you start over again at the IRC. Since you're now looking (like before) at a freshly-shuffled 6D shoe, you begin at -20, just like before.

Further comments:
Do you really mean that you get only 3 decks dealt out of a 6D shoe? If the dealer is cutting 3 decks out of play in a 6D shoe, you leave! With penetration that bad on a 6D shoe, straight card counting is pointless unless the other rules are incredibly favorable to the player: say BJ pay 2:1, player wins ties, a combination of early and late-late surrender (that's where you get to surrender AFTER the dealer plays her hand... just kidding!).

Does the casino use a "shuffle card" on its shoes? Every shoe game I've ever seen has used a shuffle card: a plastic card, usually yellow or red, that the dealer inserts into the pack after the cut. The dealer continues dealing until the SC appears: at that point, she finishes the current round, then breaks the shoe and shuffles. If you're at the table when the dealer finishes her shuffle, you can see immediately how far back in the pack she puts it: is she putting it in halfway through the 6D shoe? If your casino DOES use a SC, are you saying that the dealer is simply deciding to shuffle without the SC having appeared?

Seems strange to me... have you played in more than one casino?

Dog Hand

It seems obvious from your questions, you don't have the KO book. Why would you even think about risking money in a casino without investing a whopping $15 by buying the book.

If you want to use true count conversion for an unblalanced system, then you start your IRC =
-4(N) which is the way I do it. It gives you better betting accuracy.

OK, we're halfway through the game and the count is +5 let's say, and there are 3 decks left. The dealer decides to shuffle these 3 remaining decks. Do I pick up the count from where I left off of +5? or do I do the math and start from -4*(3-1) = -8?

I've never seen the scenario you describe occur in any casino in which I have played. I have seen preferential shuffles and I have had pit bosses direct dealers to reshuffle before the cut card came out, but I've never seen a dealer stop in mid-shoe and reshuffle the remaining cards. I don't think you need to worry about this. If I saw it happen, I'd wonder what the hell is going on and probably leave the casino.

As a purely hypothetical or theoretical question, you'd simply pick up where you left off. You didn't know the order of the remaining cards before they were shuffled. If no new cards were added or subtracted, the RC would remain exactly the same as it was prior to the shuffle and the order of the cards would remain unknown. But this is a purely theoretical answer. In reality, I can't see this scenario occurring.

I'd also join the other posters here in recommending that you purchase the KO book.

You stated:
I am used to the HI-Lo, but just looking into this KO system

If you're familiar with Hi-Lo and are comfortable with doing True-Count conversions, why are you switching systems? Under most circumstances, Hi-Lo will give you marginally better results. The only reason I can think of to switch from Hi-Lo to KO is if you're struggling with estimating the decks in the discard rack and/or dividing the running count to obtain a true count.

I will echo a couple comments already made by others:
- Buy the KO book if you plan to use the system. It should answer all the questions you've asked.
- If the casino is really only dealing three out of six decks (in other words, you're getting "half-shoed"), the game is worthless and should not be played unless it's using extraordinary rules or the casino is running a good promotion.