What's it like getting backed off/barred?

i'm a new counter in Europe and have never played in heat. when i go back to the states, i'll hit Vegas and Reno. i'm wondering what the getting-backed-off process consists of and if i'm required to show ID before cashing in my chips (after i get backed-off).

do casinos rough you up? what do the city police think of counters? will they be sympathetic to you and be on your side, or do they side with the casinos? have counters ever sued casinos for discrimination?

are chips, technically speaking, the property of the casino? can you leave the casino premises with chips? (is it hard to counterfeit chips? i always wondered if people counterfeit chips...can't be harder than counterfeiting money, i suppose).

the cheeze

Generally speaking, if a casino wishes to stop you from playing blackjack, you will be told, usually in a fairly polite way, that your action is no longer wanted at the blackjack tables. This is considered by most to be a back-off and not a full-fledged barring. If you are barred, which is unlikely if you are a low to medium stakes counter, especially if they haven't seen you before, you will be told that if you come into the casino again, you will be considered a trespasser and may be liable for criminal charges. You could probably count on one hand the number of people who have actually been arrested for this, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

You are under no obligation to produce your ID to cash in your chips, although a casino might try to make you do it. I have heard of some casinos attempting this lately, including the old Wynn casinos. Casinos have been known to confiscate people's chips and it might take legal action to get your money, but again, this is a very rare occurance.

If police do get involved, don't expect any sympathy from them at all. In smaller venues, like Tunica, they are virtually owned by the casinos anyway. There is usually no reason for police involvement. However, if the casino personnel attempt to take custody of you in any way, yell and scream loudly for someone to call the police right now and refuse to go into any area that is not a public area viewed by the casino patrons. The casino has no right to detain you unless you are being charged with a crime and only then until the proper authorities come to take custody of you. Card-counting is not a crime.

Chips are the property of casinos, but they are also very much like a check or a promissory note issued to you and the casino is obligated to pay you for chips that are rightfully yours. You can leave the premises with casino chips.

Most of the time, casinos will not go to great lengths to harrass you even if you are caught counting. They will simply tell you to quit playing blackjack or to leave. They usually reserve their worst for folks who have been winning substantial sums of money off them for a long period of time. There are always exceptions to the rule however.

I wouldn't worry too much about being roughed up by casino personnel. That hasn't happened, at least to my knowledge, in a very long time.

As for making a claim of discrimination, lawsuits have been tried, without success, in the past. It is illegal to bar a card counter in New Jersey (Atlantic City), but in the first place, the games there are by and large lousy and in the second place, they will find other ways to harrass card counters. They can, for instance, restrict your betting or shuffle up on you at any time. Other than New Jersey, card counters are not a protected class and the casinos can discriminate against them at will.

i'm wondering what the getting-backed-off process consists of

Simple: a Shiftmanager tells you in your face: "you can't play here any more."

and if i'm required to show ID before cashing in my chips (after i get backed-off).

No, unless the casino is required to fill out a CTR on your behalf. CTR is required when you're redeeming at least $10,000.01 in chips.

do casinos rough you up?

No, not in my case. However, there was a case in which a casino "thought" a card counter was cheating, and ordered 2 casino guards to beat him up badly.

what do the city police think of counters?

I don't know what LVPD cops think of me as a card counter, but I know what the cops think of casinos (the paymasters). One thing for sure, casinos pay for cops' salaries indirectly, not the card counters.

will they be sympathetic to you and be on your side, or do they side with the casinos?

It's most likely cops'll do what casinos ask them to do if casinos press charges against card counters, i.e., trespassing.

It's like asking: "will a dog bite the hand that feeds it?" Of course not. By the way, I know at least one casino which actually feeds LVPD cops literally. A day before a shiftmanager told me not to play in his house anyway, I was comped to a gourmet dinner. While I was dinning, a group of LVPD cops with a sergeant walked in and were seated across the room from me. From the conversaton I had with my waiter, I was told that the cops were fed by the casino freely and regularly. Armed with that knowledge, I gave no lips to the shiftmanager when he told me not to play there a day after.

have counters ever sued casinos for discrimination?

I don't think so. Although it's illegal to discriminate based on race, religion, sex, etc..., it's legal to discriminate (pick and choose) your customers based on profitableness. Casinos don't like to serve card counters because they are not profitable to casinos. Likewise, some restaurants refuse to serve their customers who use American Express Credit Cards. It's not profitable to deal with American Express, i.e., 5% discounts charged against the merchants, where as 2% discounts by Visa/MC, a savings of 3% by virtual of discriminating against the Am Exp users. I don't see the Am-Exp users suing restaurants, do you?

are chips, technically speaking, the property of the casino?

Chips are casinos' until you buy them with your cold cash, then it's yours.

can you leave the casino premises with chips?

Sure! Casinos love you for that if you drop them a bag of cash and walk out with their plastics. It's like an interest-free loan.

(is it hard to counterfeit chips? i always wondered if people counterfeit chips...can't be harder than counterfeiting money, i suppose).

Yes and no. It all depends on how "cheaps" are those chips. There was a victimized casino which got some "cheap" blackchips, and it learned the hard way. Its "cheap" blackchips can be counterfeited by turning its $1 chip into its $100 chip with a copy-cut&paste trick.
When the casino discovered the trick, it pulled out all its blackchips out of circulation. It's a kind of comical to see thatthe highrollers bet a stack of greens "skyhigh" without the blackchips for several weeks.

I'm sure some more backoff/86ed' guys will answer your post with more interesting stories, how about it guys?

This may sound silly, but the backoff tactic that gives me the most problem is the oh-so-polite backoff in an upscale joint. If you passively submit, you are practically admitting your guilt, whereas a demand for an explanation simply calls more attention to oneself. I almost prefer the old-fashioned, time-tested, in-your-face roust.

Wally

When you are backed off, it's advisable to be friendly and cooperative (they know what you were doing, don't deny it.. you won't change their opinion) and you should not return to that venue on that shift until you're sure they won't recognize you or your new disguise.

If you're recognized upon returning or you make a scene during a backoff, you'll likely be photographed and publicized amongst collaborative resorts as an "undesirable". This is what you most want to avoid if you want longevity in Sin City.

Excellent Post, Boot. It's nice to see posts about back-rooming and
trespass legalities that reflect the realities of a truly professional player.

Spok

I was barred in Bally's in Atlantic City in 1981, before the courts ruled against barring. I was playing at a $5 table spreading 1 to 10. I was asked by 5 or 6 bosses to step into the back room, where I was read from a card that I am considered to be a professional card counter. I may not play blackjack or give assistance at BJ, but that I may paly any other game. I was told that if I am cought playing BJ again, then I will be barred from the premises.

The funny thing is that i have NEVER been barred from playing blackjack at any casino, or even backed off for that matter. But i can tell u how it does feel to be backed off, cause it happens quite a bit to me when making sports bets. I think i mentioned this not too long ago on here. I have actually come to the point where it doesn't even bother me anymore, and i feel like it has become a "training guide" for my future blackjack encounters. I play medium green right now, but plan to move to the upper green level within the next year.

Honestly, i never worry about being barred or recognized anymore, there is enough stress in just doing things right while at the table that if some paranoid fool wants to think something...let him, there are plenty of other casinos and shifts to play. As far as sports, i constantly hear comments like..."Well u are a runner, and your kind are not welcome here!" These sports book mangers think they are so smart. Yeah i'm only in my mid 20's, and i bet the max in every sports book i walk into, college and pro. But it is as much my money as it is my 4 partners. I can't use a phone while in the sportsbook, so of course i have to go in and out a few times once in awhile....man, they are just stupid!!! I know this doesn't involve blackjack, but at least its a story right?

Hopefully i will never have any blackjack barring stories for this forum, i like to think i am to smart for those clowns. I guess time will tell!!

table

There are at least two ways to never get barred: play somewhere where they can't bar you such as Atlantic City or play a losing game. You say you have been barred making sports bets. The solution here is also simple. Use a "beard" (messenger) to make your bets. If in Nevada you can't pay him or it is illegal, though. You appear to have been accused of this as being your excuse for being barred and perhaps you are due to your 4 partners. Another solution is to play Internet sportsbooks. Yes, they can bar you but again you can use beards. Due to more promotions, this may be the way to go as long as they are reputable. Don't worry about being barred from using phones in sportsbooks in the US, nobody can. I think you may also have some serious money management problems. This is due to you being only a mid-green BJ player but ALWAYS betting the maximum at sportsbooks. Many books take $10K bets and unlike BJ you can only estimate your actual advantage.

6 bosses sweat that.your ev must be about 2 cents an hour.some of these people are complete morons.i was backed off at the fiesta after it was bought out.this idiot floor was actually mad at me for counting.he acted like it was his money.i hope his company man attitude was changed when they laid his ass off after the 11th.dont these people realize the casinos could give a rats ass about them.when i dealt sd i would give 75% pen.i even told the shift boss dont sweat the red action so much.5-20 will not break you.

I was proud of myself.

Number One:

I don't have a money management problem. I know how much to bet according to my bankroll, in both blackjack and sports. I remember mentioning in my post that i have four partners for the sports betting. So, our money is divided, and it is easier to make max bets at the books....especially with the pathetic limits most sports books take around here nowadays. Plus, i play blackjack solo, and if i was betting a minimum, of say $500 a hand up to a max of say $6000 or more, the amount of action i would put in play in an hour, especially with a real high count, would be ridiculous!!! Most sporting events last 2 and a half hours or more, plus we usually have money on both sides which bumps our risk down even more. In three hours of blackjack play at even 100 hands an hour, i could never bet the way i do at sports, at the tables. Besides i am also only at the mid green level because i am still getting a good feel for the game, i want to experience huge losing streaks at this level, before upping the stakes to make sure i can handle it. I am not at all mad at u for your post, but just goes to show that one should never post something like u did off assumption. See ya!!!

table

Are you "reinstated" or is that shit ruling grandfathered for life?