What is the basic strategy for 8,8 against a dealer A? (2-deck, H17, no-DAS and no-Surr). The BS chart I have doesn't address these conditions.
Also, is there an "index" for player 16 (8,8) against dealer A in this case? If so, what change would the index elicit?
Thanks in advance. Theo
You can STOP splitting at around TC +6 or so... I think... hence the term... always split Aces and eights!
For the sake of comparison:
For 16 vs dealer A, you have only two options: Hit or Stand. At TC = 0 you Hit. At some positive TC (I don't have exact TC offhand) and above, you Stand. Now you have 8,8 vs dealer A, you have also two options: Hit and Split (in H17 game only). At TC = 0 you split. At some NEGATIVE TC (I don't have exact TC offhand) and below, you hit. At any posiive TC you Split. Split supercedes Hit. So Hit on 8,8 is not an option.
Now we need BJ experts to give us the index numbers. My CA program is now in debugging mode and will not run for some time. So I don't have the index numbers availble.
88 vs 10, split at TC < 8
88 vs A, split at TC >= -12
of course if surrender is available, and you don't split as above, then surrender either.
88 vs 10 you have two options: Split and Stand. No Hit.
Surrender option if available, will be at lower TC.
88 vs A (H17 game)you have two options: Split and Hit. No Stand.
For TC=0, surrender if this option is available.
For 88 vs 10, you can hit, split, double (if DA2), stand, or if LS is available, you can surrender. Now if you are talking BS plays, that's a different thing, but you can do anything you want... The plays I gave are what I believe the full hi-lo system says do. I don't use all the hi-lo indices published by wong because I'm not playing at -12 TC for example. :)
>88 vs 10, split at TC < 8
2 options: Split and Stand only. No Hit option. So stand at TC >= 8.
>88 vs A, split at TC >= -12
2 options: Split and Hit only. No Stand option. (H17 game)
This TC index seems extreme to me.
>of course if surrender is available, and you don't split as above, >then surrender either.
88 vs 10: surrender at a +TC index. TC index =?
88 vs A: surrender even when TC=0. (H17 game) TC index =?
Sorry for the confusion. What I mean is the original bet, not after split. Doubling is for after splitting hands. So doubling is not a viable option although you can double on 16 (always losing). For example, for 8,8 vs dealer A you can split, stand and hit (do whatever you want), there is simply no viable option for Stand at any TC count. So your TC index applies to Split or Hit decision only. Similarly for 8,8 vs dealer 10 you can split, stand and hit, but there is simply no viable option for Hitting 8,8 at any TC count. So your TC index number applies to Split or Stand decision only, and not to be used to make Hitting decision.
BTW, I seem to double post similar message below. I was not able to delete it.
Now I see what you were saying. I only gave the index play for one side of the TC, assuming the other side was obvious... Your "other sides" were correct...
Although as I said, that -12 index is not one I use nor remember. :)
always split.
I was referring to a "risk-averse" play. At a big + TC, you will have a max bet out. Splitting puts 2 max bets out, which increases bankroll fluctuation significantly. Surrender loses 1/2 the big bet, which is a little worse overall in terms of win/lose, but with less money out, bankroll won't change as wildly...
Technically you surrender 16 vs 9, 10, A at any true count. And technically you split 88 against anything at any true count...
using Wong's full hi-lo indices, I believe this is the strategy:
88 vs 10
split TC < 8
stand TC >= 0
else hit
88 vs A
split > -12
hit
The surrender question is more about variance than about EV, with respect to this hand...
You wrote:
88 vs 10
split TC < 8
stand TC >= 0
else hit
The above would not be able to tell what to do at TC = 4. Split? Stand? Is it typo here? I would think this way:
88 vs 10
split TC < 8
stand TC >= 8
So there is no situation you'll ever hit.
split at TC < 8
So if the TC is +4, split. otherwise stand. You are correct about the "hit" as that can't happen with the other two tests done first. I was copying the indices from CVBJ and didn't catch the mutual exclusion.
I still think surrender is the best option at TC >= 4, assuming you have ramped to a big bet by that point. Minor EV loss, significant variance reduction.
At high TC, that's going to turn into two 18's vs a 20 a significant part of the time...
I agree with your assessment of surrender for 8,8 vs 10. If late surrender is allowed, for TC >= 4, one should surrender. SURRENDER should replace all Hit options (TC >= 8) and replace some Split options from TC=4 to TC=8.
For 8,8 vs A with H17 and late Surrender rule, I only know that one should surrender at TC = 0 instead of Split. I don't know the detail... For S17 rule, your only option is to Split all the time. Do not Surrender, Hit or Stand at any TC.
it depends on your goal.
if you get an 88 vs an A, and split, and you already have a big bet out, then you double your risk (and bankroll variance) since you can now lose both bets, and will on plenty of occasions, whereas if you surrender, you lose 1/2 bet and move on. For example, 88 vs 10 is a -.48 expectation for splitting, where surrender is -.50. But with surrender my variance can't exceed 1/2 my bet, where with splitting it can be 2x for this hand.
Of course, if you want to eke out that last little bit for hi-lo, you ought to commit all of SW's indices to memory, but I'm afraid my head would explode... That's my reasoning. 88 vs 8 is something like -.37 (I should look it up, but didn't) which means that surrender is about .1 unit worse. And again, bankroll fluctuation is much larger, although none of these are very common in an hour session...
