Vegas Trip Report June 6 - 9 2004 (very long)

I was in Vegas for the first time in three years and I must say that the quality of blackjack in this town has dropped dramatically.
It's hard to believe that Atlantic City might be a better place to play than Vegas for the serious blackjack player.

The three biggest things that are ruining the game in Vegas are:

1. Casinos hitting the soft 17 on 6 or 8 deck blackjack. This adds another .2% advantage to the casino.

2. The dreaded 6:5 blackjack payout, instead of the standard 3:2 payout. This adds another 2% advantage to the casino. BOYCOTT THIS GAME!!

3. 6 deck games being replaced with 8 deck games. This give the casino only an additional .02% advantage, but makes high counts more rare.

I would like to say that the casinos are shooting themselves in the foot, but I am not an expert in casino management. It could very well be, unfortunately, that most tourist blackjack players don't understand the game well enough and therefore have no problem throwing their money away on these sucker blackjack games.

However, I was glad to see that Continuous Shuffler Machines (CSMs) were not very popular at all. Very few casinos were using these machines (Mirage was really the only casino I saw that had a lot of these games open). Apparently, even the casual blackjack player understands the concept of a hot shoe, and would rather play a shuffled shoe game than a continuous shuffler machine. The casinos, I think, are going to give up on the CSMs eventually.

Here is a list of the casinos I visited on my trip. They are listed in the order I visited them. My game play: I only had a 1 to 2 bet spread and walked away whenever the true count went to -1 or below (after a loss, for camouflage purposes). This gave me a very small advantage over the house, so I wasn't expecting much heat.

Texas Station:
When I got off the plane on Sunday, I wanted to avoid the high minimiums that strip casinos have on weekends, so I went off strip. Texas Station had plenty of $5 tables, even had a $3 table. They had only one blackjack pit. They had about 5 tables that were 6 decks H17 DAS LS RA; 2 tables that were 2 decks H17 DAS; and then they had a couple of crappy 6:5 blackjack games.
The dealers and pit bosses were very counter aware and don't even like to see good basic strategy players. Dealers were giving me attitude for late surrendering my 16s. No players I saw at this casino was using late surrender or playing proper basic strategy.
Overall I thought the place is alright to play if you have a very small bet spread, definitely not more than a 1 - 3 spread. Not much room to table hop, so don't play here for more than an hour.

Fiesta Rancho:
This place is a complete waste of time for any blackjack player. They only had two real blackjack tables open. One was a 6 deck H17 DAS and the other was a 2 deck H17 DAS. The rest of the tables were Super Fun 21 and the crappy 6:5 blackjack. The two tables with regular blackjack were completely full.
I was able to get a spot at the two deck and played for a few minutes before the ploppies at this table drove me insane to the point I had to leave. They kept pressuring me to play the Royal Match bet. If your first two cards are the same suit you get a 2:1 payout. I didn't know if this was a good bet or not, so I refused to play. That infuriated the players at the table for whatever reason.
It's obvious this place makes a ton of money from the slot machines and doesn't want to waste time or money on the table games that don't bring in as much as the slots.

Bighorn Casino:
I saw this casino in the CBJN and was curious to see what it was all about. They have the best blackjack rules in Vegas, 6 decks H17 LS RA and you can double down on your first 3 cards (Bighorn and Longhorn are the only places that offer this option).
This casino is for the real die hard gambler that hates the glitz of the strip. It's a very small place with lots of slot machines and three blackjack tables. However, only one blackjack table was open when I was there.
I liked the gritty feel of the place. It seemed like all the players at the blackjack table were card counters that new how to play. The pit bosses didn't seem to care too much, as long as the players were playing red chips with no more than a 1 - 5 bet spread.

Mandalay Bay:
I really liked this place. It had about 40 tables open. 30 of the tables were 6 deck H17 LS DAS RA and the other 10 tables were 6 decks S17 LS DAS RA. The S17 tables were $25.00 minimums and up, the H17 tables were $10 minimums and up.
This place is great for table hopping and the scenery is great. This casino is very aesthetically clean.
I got no heat here for my play.

Venetian:
This place is a waste of time for serious blackjack players. Almost all of their games are 8 decks H17 RA DAS LS. They had a few 6D S17 RA DAS LS games available, but they were $100.00 minimums. The tables were crowded; I didn't bother to play even one hand here.
If you are going to hit the soft 17, then at least don't make it an 8 deck game, keep it 6 decks.
This place makes so much money from the rooms, entertainment and shopping. I don't know why they have to screw their casino players with bad blackjack games.

Ballys:
This place doesn't have a lot of good blackjack (8 deck games with H17, 6:5 single deck). However, it did have one 6 deck game S17 LS DAS and two double deck games H17 DAS. The minimums at these 3 tables were $25.00. Playing at these table was quite enjoyable, I did win a few hundred dollars here.
The pit bosses were definitely not the friendly types and it seemed like they didn't appreciate even good basic strategy players. Dealers were giving me attitude for surrendering my 16s and snickering every time I doubled my bet when the true count was over +2. However, they tolerated me for a few hours and then I left.

Caesars:
This place is by far the best for playing blackjack. Almost all of their tables are 6 decks S17 LS RA DAS. The dealers were even bragging how blackjack is better at Caesars because they stand the soft 17. It's obvious this place caters to the serious gambler that doesn't want to be ripped off with crappy blackjack games. There are plenty of tables available for table hopping.
I was in and out of this place a few times, playing for about two hours at a time. They badgered me and my wife for our IDs so that we can get a players card. Eventually my wife gave her ID, but the pit bosses kept badgering me for mine and eventually I gave in. I don't know if this was because they knew I was counting and they wanted to know who I was, or maybe they are very aggressive in their marketing. I guess I will know if next time I go there they kick me out.

Mirage:
A complete waste of time for blackjack players. Wow, did the blackjack here go down big time. Only stupid suckers play blackjack here, unless you play the $100.00 minimum 6D S17 RA DAS LS games.
Almost all the games were either 8 deck H17 RA DAS LS or 5 deck CSMs.

I guess without Siegfried and Roy they need to make up the money by screwing their blackjack players with very bad games.

Bellagio:
Almost all their games were CSM, except for a few $100.00 minimum 6D S17 RA DAS LS.
This place seems to attract a lot of clueless rich players who don't mind playing a bad CSM game. If they can get away without offering a good blackjack game, then why shouldn't they do it. This place is a waste of time for serious players.

Palms:
I really thought this place had too many cocky arrogant college kids and twenty somethings. The dealers were all in their twenties and definitely needed some sleep. They were very tired and constantly making mistakes. I know was playing after midnight, but still there is no excuse for dealers to be so sleepy. This place is a real party house full of youngsters just wanting to drink and go crazy.
The games here were all pretty much 6D H17 LS RA DAS. They had a few $100 minimums 6D S17 LS RA DAS. Also a few crappy 6:5 blackjack games.
My biggest problem with the pit bosses was that they were overly efficient with tables. They only had exactly enough tables open so that each player can get one spot. Every table was full. God forbid a table should have less than 4 players on it. The pit bosses closed down over 20 tables, to make sure the place was at maximum efficiency. It was not fun or comfortable to play here. You just had no room to move around.

Golden Nugget:
Plenty of $5.00 tables here. They had 20 tables 6 deck H17 LS RA DAS, 1 table single deck H17, and a few double decks H17 DAS. Also two tables $100 minimum 6 deck S17 DAS LS RA. This place was very enjoyable to play at, even though I was getting killed.
I never saw so many high positive counts, but I kept losing anyway. Several times I checked to make sure I wasn't playing Super Fun 21 by mistake, because there were so many low cards coming out of the shoe with very few tens appearing. I am not accusing anyone of cheating, but it just seemed too odd.
Overall, the new management here is doing a decent job in providing a pleasurable playing experience. They were plenty of open tables and low minimums.

MGM Grand:
A very crowded place to play, at least at the 6 deck S17 LS RA DAS games. The majority of the tables were 6 decks H17 LS RA DAS, but there were at least 10 tables with the S17. Plenty of tables available for hopping around. It's a good place to play at odd hours when there are fewer people around.

Overall, I think that eventually within 5 - 10 years, casinos will get rid of the table games or severely limit them and just offer slots. That's where the real money for these guys are.

For the blackjack player, RIP Vegas.

A few weeks ago Venetian 6 DD tables open most of the time, Mirage had a pit of 6 DD tables, and Bellagio had 6 or 8 DD tables back by the poker room. The minimums were usually $50 and up, but if real slow they were lowered to $25.

Have all of these been closed?

Yup! The glory days of BlackJack in Las Vegas have passed by.

I am suprised you ventured into some of the Casinos with a copy of CBJN in hand. I prefer pitch games and refuse to play at any Casino with a 6:5 table on their floor.

The Nugget, Four Queens and LV Club still have my favorite single deck games, but they tolerate very little Advantage Play and are usually pretty busy. Also, I was able to play at The El Cortez $5-500 single deck tables for several extended playing sessions with a 1-30 red spread. Good single deck game but the atmosphere is Low Roller City and Serious Heat eventually came. I left just before being asked to.

Anyways, Nice report and I would seriously doubt any problems ever with a 1-2 spread. Good Luck.

I just came back from a short weekend stop-over in Vegas (6/12-6/14) after an Alaskan cruise. I played green chip in multiple casinos - Bally's, Mandalay Bay, Caesar's, Mirage and Hilton. All of the hotels had good six-deck games (S17, DAS, DOA, LS), except for the Hilton, where the dealer hit on soft 17.

I got no attitude from any of the dealers about late surrender at any of the locations. In fact, based upon the bone-headed play of many of the "twenty-somethings" at the tables last weekend, the dealers seemed to enjoy dealing to a good basic strategy player.

The only places I had any problem finding a table were: 1) Bally's, where there were only two tables, and 2) Paris, where the only six-deck games available were at $100 tables. Needless to say, I left there without playing.

All in all, it was a great experience. In a little over a day of blackjack play for a total of 5-6 hours, I made over $1,300. So, I'm a happy camper.

Perhaps if you had focused on just $25 tables, you would have had a different perspective.

From my perspective, there are still plenty of great opportunities to make money in Vegas. All of the casinos' attention seems to be focused on the idiots playing the 6/5 single-deck games that are spreading like cancer throughout Vegas. Unless you play large stakes (like the guy I saw at Mirage playing $2000/hand, two hands at a time), or are an obvious card counter, the floor staff does not seem to even be paying attention. There are many bad blackjack players around to lose money. So, if I can continue to fly "below the radar", I can play undetected and undisturbed.

I can't speak for other casinos, since I was not looking for DD games. However, since I was staying at Bally's, I noticed that there were two DD games going on at all times. One was a $50 table; the other was a $25 table. As could be expected, the cut card was about one deck deep.

In the last session of my trip last weekend, I played at the $25 DD table for about 3 minutes one-on-one with the dealer, lost $175 and immediately got up. I vowed never to sit at a DD table again.

it simply isn't true. There are plenty of opportunities. Table games will not completely go away. That pretty much defies logic. Sure, slots make more money but there is a large group of players that only play table games. Take them away and the casino loses that group's money. If this were not so they would have removed them a few years ago. Anyway...a post just like yours has been repeated monthly for decades and the one thing that has remained constant over the years is beatable blackjack.

Krill the G

It sounds like your reason for vowing never to play double deck again was that you lost money.

If $25 limit was above your bankroll, then you should vow never to play above your bankroll. Whether the game was double deck or single deck or 6-deck should have nothing to do with it.

Double deck games are often among the best to be found in terms of SCORE. There are DD games where the cut card is well back from 1 deck. I've seen 65%-70% in Vegas at a number of places. The games can be beat.

The problem with them is longevity. It's very easy to spot a counter at a double deck game, especially if there aren't very many other players at the table (which means you'll get many more opportunities to bet--and be evaluated--during a pack). All of my backoffs have been at double deck; never been backed off a shoe.

If you were playing heads up, it was going fast. If you were playing $25 units, the money was moving FAST. If you have a bankroll that supports that, you shouldn't be afraid to play double deck; it's a great game. But if you don't have a sufficient bankroll to support $25 units, you shouldn't bet at that level no matter what the game. Unfortunately, I've made the mistake of playing above my bankroll a number of times, and when the money's moving, it can give you a sick feeling in your stomach. I think that's nature's way of telling us we're doing something stupid! I only wish I had heeded that warning the first time!

Whether you're playing shoes or double deck, the better games at any given property are almost always going to be found at the higher limit tables. It's the unfortunate fact of life for blackjack. You won't generally find very profitable games at low limits unless you have something else going for you besides counting, like shuffle tracking, hole carding, etc.

Winning and losing $175 at any type of game should be taken in stride without a second thought if you're betting $25 units. You'll frequently win or lose that on one hand if you're spreading 1-8 at double deck.

So, I'm guessing the issue you had wasn't with double deck, but with the table minimum you had to stretch to in order to play double deck.

Am I right?

Based upon what I said, I can understand your reaction. However, you are wrong.

My instincts told me not to play the game, since the penetration was so poor. However, the six-deck tables were full; and since I had been "on a roll", I wanted one more session before I left for home. And, being late at night and me so tired, my resistance broke down.

As soon as I sat down and saw the cut card, I should have gotten up. However, I played anyway. And, as soon as I started losing, my gut just told me to get up and walk away.

The $25/hand was not a problem at all. In fact, I am quickly working my way up to black play, hopefully within the next six months or so.

But I appreciate comments in any event.

It is definitely true. There are still plenty of great 6D BlackJack games with favorable rules. You do have to search a little and check the rules before sitting down. But, beatable blackjack still exists and the shoe games generally come with no heat.

However, the real single deck games are quickly disappearing and the penetration of most double deck games has worsened. Also, most of the pitch games are closely monitored and have higher limits on the strip.

I guess I just keep moaning about Vegas because of what Harrahs did to my beloved Horseshoe. There are still plenty of good games just not as prevalent and all the extra decks require a little more work for a HiLo true count.

I am also a little ticked about it but such is life. We just need someone to open a gambler friendly casino. Something privately owned where there is no board of directors or stockholder's wanted more and more on the bottom line.

I will still play it as a filler game if the place gives out decent comps. If I have already toured the good games for that day/shift/week I will hit any game I can if I still have time to play. I still have the advantage and even though the income per hour is low and the variance is big I will still play because after several thousand hours of 50% pen DD with good comps I make out pretty good. Now keep in mind I am playing instead of hitting the movies or sight seeing. Lesser production but production none the less. It all adds up. I also realize this is the activity of a full timer and not the weekend warrior.

Good luck,
Krill the G

DD is my fave game when I play LV for a few reasons. One is I like the spread. SD is usually better, but you have to watch your spread. I also find that those two decks can really get out of whack near the 52 cards dealt level using Hi Opt II. With a 2:1 spread I have around a .30 to .40 edge with "fair" penetration. Diff dealers, diff shiff, diff pene. Gets you into the comp category on day one. As the trip grows longer my unit size shrinks but my spread gets bigger. When I get to a 8:1 spread I have around a 1.3% edge. It's also pretty hard to lose count playing DD when you are used to counting 8D. ;> Hope to be at the Dust and Riv in Aug. DAS.

"It don't mean a thing
If it don't got that swing
Dewop dewop dewop dewop dewop dew"

It's been a while since I've been there, but they only had two playable pits of 6d before, one at 10/25 minimums and the other at 25+ minimums. All of the other games were CSMs or 8d games. Have things changed there?

For the most part, you are correct. There are additional pits; however, most times I have been there, the additional pits have not been in use. Your scenario was accurate this past weekend.