To The Newbie Counter I Met Recently.....

I hope you see this, but if not, hopefully others will gain:

You were technically perfect. You made all the correct plays and you laid out the money appropriately! Way to go! You also seemed to be
WELL financed for what you were betting. This is all GOOD!

But, if I were the pitboss, I would have backed you off before the first shoe was completed.

If you don't mind some advice from a more experienced player:

1. Don't EVER mention the word PENETRATION at the tables!

2. Although it was not pronounced, I could detect a bit of bouncing   

   up and down of your head as the cards came out and glaring eye 

   movement.

3. Don't count each and every card as it comes out, At the very least

   wait until the dealer receives his upcard and then start the count.

   Preferably, wait until ALL the cards are dealt and then scan the 

   table to pick up the count.

4. The optimal play when there is at least one other player at the

   table is to play 2 hands.  One hand if alone.  NEVER play 3 hands

   unless you have a count and KNOW that it is the last round of the

   shoe.

I was in agreement with you until you hit item #3. While there are differences in games, it is generally better to play two hands if heads-up and one hand if there is more than one player at the table. This is especially true in single-deck games that deal to the rule of six.

This person was playing a SHOE game.

From the esteemed Don, BJA, 2nd edition, page 30.

To summarize: Play one hand if you are alone with the dealer; play 2 hands, each of which is 73% of your one-hand top wager, under all other circumstances.

That is where my info was coming from. IF it is wrong, then so be it.

Another Player

While there are differences in games, it is generally better to play two hands if heads-up and one hand if there is more than one player at the table. This is especially true in single-deck games that deal to the rule of six.

I understand why this is true for single deck RO6 (2 hands get to see 9 hands before the final round, while 1 hand or 3 only see 8 hands), but I believe this is the exception, not the rule. In fact, you should even play two hands into negative counts in a shoe, if you're "constrained" for cover to bet a certain total (optimal constrained betting). DD' wrote a POM on this in Mar 1999.

I always try to play two hands into positive counts where there's a cut card and company at the table. Once or twice, I've dropped to one on the second to last round, when it looked like the extra hand might force a shuffle -- again, the exception, not the rule.

ETF

Don is referring to spreading from one hand to two when making your top bet. He is assuming that you are playing one hand until that point.

I am suggesting that two hands when heads-up is a good way to play, even in shoes. You are going to get all the cards either way, good or bad. You might as well lower your variance and get the little ones out of the way. If another player joins you in mid-shoe, then go back to one hand, and only spread to two when the count calls for it.

...I like your recommendation #3. Bout midway through my last trip, I started counting shoe games like they were pitch games. For us beginners, it's WAY easier to count by pairs once the cards have been dealt. I think this technique cuts down on the unnatural eye movements, since everybody naturally watches the other players take hits. Probably cuts down on head bobbing too. The only problem with this technique is that it doesn't work very well from first base. I noticed a couple of times that I looked up to find everybody staring at me, waiting to see if I wanted a hit. Couple of times I had to play before I had a chance to count up what was showing. I don't know if it made THAT much difference, it's not too hard to tell at a glance if a lot of face cards are showing. But it's a lot easier from the other side of the playing field.

Thanks for this post. I know it wasn't me because of the "technically perfect" part but it was good reading anyway ;)

You agree that Don meant Top bets?
OR you agree with Bootlegger that playing one hand is better?

Has there been new research on this?

I just doubled checked Wong's Professional Blackjack.
He has a whole treatment of this subject in the 1994 edition, pages
208-211. In summary he states: Generally, if you are alone with the dealer you are better off playing one hand, and if there are other players you are better off playing two hands when you have the edge

Note: When you have the edge and not just the top bet.

Please advise.

Another Player

I think it is in the POM archives came to a nonintuitive conclusion for six deck: In neutral counts (I think above -1 because you ought to get out below for sure) the cardeating effect of two hands is more productive than one hand, even if you are playing at a disadvantage. Card eating gets you in a position to play more favorable hands in the same time. Also, while this is not mathematical but cover, it is less conspicuous to stay at two hands than to switch to two hands and two hands are certainly more favorable at high counts because you can get more money on the table at the same risk.

The Schlesinger formultation of a twelve spread going to two sixes at the top has now been supersceded by optimal betting theory which was not around for the first BJA. I doubt very much Don would now endorse it as unvarying strategy. I also think if Wong were revising PBJ he would change his advice according to the DD' post.

I agreed with Bootlegger's general advice, of playing two hands in general.

The theory shows that are marginally better off, in a head-on game, playing one spot. If you play tow spots, your optimal bet raise is about 1.45, but you will use up about 1.5 times as many cards. That is the basis for the recommendation in BJA and Prof BJ.

First note how little difference there is between playing one hand and playing two. They are almost even.

Second, you have to consider whom are preserving cards for. If you are a table with NME, then you are preserving the good cards for yourself. Otherwise, there is nothing to really to sop somebody else from plopping in and taking the good cards which you have carefully saved by only playing one hand.

Finally, I think it is bad cover to sometimes play one hand, and sometime play two. Whatever gain you might have by playing one hand under some circumstances is not worth the cover problems.

Bootlegger Posted: it is generally better to play two hands if heads-up and one hand if there is more than one player at the table.

Yet you said: I agreed with Bootlegger's general advice, of playing two hands in general.

Many thanks for a clarification.

Another Player

PS
In addtion to what you said about for whom are you saving the cards,
there is another reason for playing 2 hands. You may be able to get MORE money on the table at the same Risk, while staying under the radar. For example,
2 x $150 might not look as bad as 1 x $200.

This is what I originally posted in #4 above:

4. The optimal play when there is at least one other player at the table is to play 2 hands. One hand if alone. NEVER play 3 hands
unless you have a count and KNOW that it is the last round of the shoe.

I just read DD's POM. Great reading!!! I didn't realize it was better to play 2 hands ALL the time!!! But then in my post I didn't say when to spread to 2 hands.

One thing about DD's post. He did not, that I could see, mention HOW many players were at the table for the SIMS. Was it for one player or
more? I suspect more than one.

My SBA sims still indicate it is better to play One Hand when alone.
For my own education, I will attempt to duplicate DD's Sims for Hi-lo
and no averse indices.

Many thanks for your patience.

Another Player

I don't recall seeing any posts by you on GC, so I didn't think you were a member. But you mentioned that read DD's POM, which I think requires a GC password.

If you are a member, we can talk about this more on Green Chip.

Welcome to Green Chip! Like Math Prof, I don't recall seeing you post on GC before, so I am assuming you are new. We're glad to have you. Take your coat off and set a spell. :-)

Perhaps I violated some etiquette here. If so, I truly apologize.
I guess I should HAVE been UP FRONT about being anonymous. Again, I apologize for that and meant no harm.

Yes, I am a Greenchipper. Been so for a LONG time.

Boot, ETfan, Mathprof and DD ALL know who I am.

I started the post to help out a Newbie counter. I did NOT post my real handle because I did not want in any way to even remotely hint
at which casino this was or which casino area. I also didn't want any surveillance department to start reviewing tapes if they had a clue to the casino in question.

I didn't mean to cause such a stir or any trouble whatsoever.

Many thanks

Boot said:
While there are differences in games, it is generally better to play two hands if heads-up and one hand if there is more than one player at the table. [Emphasis added]

I agree that if you have a choice between always playing one hand or always playing two, you should pick two. But if general advice is to be given for shoes, Boot's advice should be exactly reversed.

Many casinos in the MidWest have a rule that you must play twice the table minimum when playing two hands. Playing four times what's required through all the negative counts is a high price to pay for cover. DD' made it clear, in follow up posts on the free pages, that he never intended his POM to be a blanket endorsement of two hands in all situations. He was writing specifically about situations where you feel "contrained" to bet a certain minimum total. Ie. If you MUST (for cover or other reasons) bet no less than, say, $50, at a $25 table, so you may as well play two hands of $25, to eat as many cards as possible.

I've been getting away with playing zero (without a potty break) one or two hands, pretty much at will for years. The only way I'll play two hands into a negative count, is if there's a vulture hovering nearby, eager to snatch the spot next to me.

ETF

I am assuming that you can bet two hands at no more than what would be 150% of your "normal" base bet. While it is true that many casinos will make you play twice the table minimum (but not all), it is also true that this might not be your minimum bet, depending upon your bankroll.

I am assuming that you can bet two hands at no more than what would be 150% of your "normal" base bet.

By the time the TC reaches +2 or so, this is normally not a problem, or if it is, the player should probably be seeking lower limits.

Regards,
ETF